tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post255846014193098519..comments2023-12-29T04:06:05.923-05:00Comments on The Blood Angels: by Jawaballs: More Mailbag! A bike comparison from DocRailgun.Jawaballshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06188462457051627625noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-22765760825848309502009-07-09T12:51:02.143-04:002009-07-09T12:51:02.143-04:00I'm not sold on khan. Having your army come i...I'm not sold on khan. Having your army come in piecemeal and potentially at different parts of the board can easily set you up for disaster. If he wasnt so expensive he would be a great choice as a captain in the vulkan list as the furious charge he grants a command squad is bad ass, especially when they have lightning claws. The best way I like khan is sadly sans bike and mixed with a squad of claw termies in a LR.<br /><br />Against guard what I have found, and what most honest guard players will tell you, is that going after the troops is the way to go. Especially against mech guard. That is a task the bikers excel at. They are fast enough to get into cc quickly with foot sloggers and against mech have the ability to triple melta a chimera and then charge the guys who spill out, either putting them safely into cc of wiping out the linchpin of the army.<br /><br />Blood angels cant do the biker army really anyways as they dont get them as troops. So for them rhinos is most assuredly the way to go. Rhino marines work in general against most armies. I think the reason your seeing people toss around bikers is they are a good counter to guard and, from what I'm finding, not bad against most other things. They can have issues against hordes but speeder flamers and sarge combi-flamers can help.<br /><br /><br />@ sabb<br /><br />good to hear your having better success! I really want to try the list out at the lower points level but ard boyz craziness has taken over for now.Khornatedemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01167931867928815633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-47454421155008638682009-07-08T17:44:58.675-04:002009-07-08T17:44:58.675-04:00Yah Doc, I figured guys like Sabb and Khornate cou...Yah Doc, I figured guys like Sabb and Khornate could answer your question better then I could. Plenty of guys poppin in here to totally field this subject, and it is a good one!Jawaballshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06188462457051627625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-37729955189598922652009-07-08T13:42:23.868-04:002009-07-08T13:42:23.868-04:00@ Kris err Khorne,
I've been doing the Vulkan...@ Kris err Khorne,<br /><br />I've been doing the Vulkan bike list lately and it's been working real well. I don't quite run the same list, but the feel is there, and it's damn effective. <br /><br />@ Everyone<br />Bikes are a finesse army plain and simple. The biggest thing I've learned recently is don't be afraid to put them in reserve. You can come on the board with a 3+ cover sv 24 inches in. It's totally different than reserving anything else. <br /><br />Personally, I believe if your bikes are getting into H2H, you're doing something wrong. They're no better than Tact marines but at 25pts (T5 doesn't help you get out of combat). They excel at mobility and shooting regardless of what wargear you give the sarg. <br /><br />Give your opponent target priorities. Does he shoot at the LRC? The two flanking Vindies? Or does he shoot the 3 squads with 2 melta guns and a MM AB?Sabbhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00954363551518785923noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-54285057176633900672009-07-08T13:24:20.690-04:002009-07-08T13:24:20.690-04:00Truth be told, I don't want to give up my Rhin...Truth be told, I don't want to give up my Rhinos (and when I use the BA Codex I certainly won't)... but I feel like the new Guard setups require my army to deal with their big guns ASAP. Unfortunately, there will be lots of melta weapons in the Guard infantry... which means that non-Outflanking transports are likely to get popped before the guns inside can get a shot off. <br /><br />I realize I am myopic on this issue, but for New Codex Marines, it seems like my choices are using Khan to Outflank my (Tac squads in) Rhinos and LRC Terminators or use something less vulnerable to melta weapons with Vulkan. <br /><br />I know this is not really a Blood Angels' discussion, but JB and Fritz have some generally keen minds lurking about their pages, so I thought I'd get some wider opinions than my own.Doc Railgunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16808605139309232776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-20157847953403547192009-07-08T12:15:17.246-04:002009-07-08T12:15:17.246-04:00@Khorn:
Maybe. Where I play, people have a raging ...@Khorn:<br />Maybe. Where I play, people have a raging hard-on for units with the stealth USR. Kroot, Pathfinders, Vets in cloaks, yeah. A few flamers really helps to make their life miserable.Jacob Bodmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592634149298777454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-6131229613932486642009-07-08T04:46:40.474-04:002009-07-08T04:46:40.474-04:00My ard boyz army is pretty much a double wing-ish ...My ard boyz army is pretty much a double wing-ish list from the amrine codex.<br /><br />Vulkan<br /><br />Bike capt w/ relic blade and combi melta<br /><br />5 bike squads with 2 melta's and a Mm attack bike<br /><br />2 th/ss terminator squads in redeemers<br /><br />2x2 MM/HF speeders.<br /><br />You can drop 2 bike squads and 1 of the termie/LRR to get it down to 1750.<br /><br />Its been pretty effective at the ard boyz level so far. I actually have yet to lose with it although I have had a few minor victories only. Once ard boyz is over I'm going to test the 1750 version out and see how it runs.<br /><br />Some people might tell you to bring command squads but unless your playing to an all biker only theme I think the LRR and terminators are a better hammer unit and the LR gives you some mobile terrain to shield a bike squad or 2 with.<br /><br />I wouldnt take anything but melta's on bike squads. I believe 3 BS4 meltas statistically will take out a tank every turn. The ability to drive up to a chimera, smoke it with meltas, and then charge the poor guardsmen is priceless.<br /><br />If you are really worried about horde's spring for combi-flamers on the sarge although I think between the land raider's guns, the mass of twin linked bolters, the flamers on speeders, and terminators you should be pretty good.Khornatedemonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01167931867928815633noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-38492676040468062552009-07-07T22:08:30.177-04:002009-07-07T22:08:30.177-04:00I'd like to throw out a few comments real quic...I'd like to throw out a few comments real quick:<br /><br />1.) If the rhino moves 12", you cannot shoot out of the top hatch. Rhinos (in this context, BA disregard half the time)aren't fast. 12" is "Cruising Speed" and, as outlined on page 66 "(models) may not fire at all if the vehicle moved at cruising speed that turn."<br /><br />2.) One of the big, non-math advantages of the Rhino-Tac squad is it's small "Footprint" a rhino is somewhere around 3x4.5" and a little shy of 2" tall, You cannot physically fit 6 bikers and an attack bike into that space. Rhinos hide easier. <br /><br />3.) Rhinos have survivability from shooting. You get one turn of cover save (From Smoke, your bestest friend) Plus, even after they manage to hit you and "wound" (Penetrate AV) you still get a "armor save" (I.E. you don't care about shaken/stunned results, or about the first wepdestroyed result) <br />That means that, in a turn where you have cover, you have an effective 75% "Armor Save" against taking damage (they need to roll a 4+ to do something that matters, then you have a 4+ cover save) And this "save" only decreases vs AP1 stuff, or if they manage to roll a "3".<br /><br />Even after they take off your storm bolter, you still have, effectively, a 3+ cover save on your rhino when it's smoked, and still have a "5+" save in general if they roll badly. <br /><br />4.) Bikes "win" out in hand to hand combat. They deal fewer wounds (tac squad has 18 attacks, 4 PW/3PF attacks on the charge, Bikes have 15 attacks, 4 PW/3PF attacks on the charge) but, thanks to the magic of T5, they'll take fewer wounds A bike unit is really quite durable in h2h. I've underestimated them myself. <br /><br />So, which do I prefer? Heck, I use both. In different armies.<br />I use the Rhinos/Razors in my "Shooty" Codex marine army, I like the extra Armor Value Saturation, plus, I wasn't planning on taking a bike Captn.<br />I also use Rhinos in my BA army (But that's a TOTALLY different story. BA Bikers are more expensive, and not troops, plus, BA rhinos are better)<br /><br />I use bike squads in a "Lightning Strike" Codex SM force, as well as a supplemental unit in my Space Wolves force. <br /><br />I'd advise against Bike units for any army that wants to be serious in h2h. (then again, I'd advise against codex marines if you want to be serious in h2h)<br /><br />I see bikes as a "Big Boy's" Tactical squad.(and I'm not just stroking my ego on this one, I promise) They're NOT the same as tactical marines. You really can't use them the same way, they're far more challenging, tactically, to get the most out of, but can really allow you to play "Smart", apply subtle force to key points, and out-maneuver your foes. <br /><br />They're not a unit for beginners, they're not a unit that shines and carries the day by themselves, they're a unit for players who know what they're doing and can wield force like a scalpel instead of a sledge. <br /><br />Besides, who can keep up with 24" of movement a turn? That's just plain fun.Jacob Bodmerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00592634149298777454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2376208744490382379.post-15672323425343769102009-07-07T18:46:39.624-04:002009-07-07T18:46:39.624-04:00yes they areyes they areDrew Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09277664787989182673noreply@blogger.com