I was not going to say any thing about it until some one else brought the dude up and then blammo, I knew I had blog content.
Is this a tactic? It almost seems like he is transferring what he is doing onto his opponent so that he is innocent of any wrongdoing. Starting rules arguments, then saying that he is just there to have fun so it must be his opponent that has the problem. Well, if you are just there to have fun, quit arguing every move, quit calling judges over when you don't like a rule, and quit browbeating your opponent. The fact is that your definition of fun is probably very different than others. Those sorts of actions are probably fun for you.
Quit being a 40k bully.
While at the GT I saw a few rules questions that I wanted to bring up here. Remember, opinion is useless. Telling us how you THINK the rule works without any sort of reasoning and/or page numbers supporting your opinion does not help the conversation. So I insist that if you wish to take part in this discussion, please support your statements with reasoning and whenever possible page numbers of rules.
Situation One:
In close combat with multiple units. After a combat round is finished, every one piles in right? What happens if one of the units cannot pile in? That is, what happens if one of the units involved in the combat fails to make base contact with a unit from the opposing side? According to the way it was ruled, and I agree with the ruling, the entire combat ends and both sides consolidate as per the rules for consolidate.
Let me give an example. Belial is part of a 5 man squad of terminators. His squad, and another unit of terminators are assaulted by a squad of Blood Angels terminators, and Mephiston. Every member of his squad is killed except for him, and all of the BA terminators are killed. Due to the defenders reacting and such, Mephiston is surrounded, and it is impossible for Belial to get base to base with him. Combat is now broken! Both sides consolidate and go their own ways. Discuss.
Situation Two:
Grey Knight terminators can deep strike and combat squad upon landing. As far as I have known in the past, any unit that stays in reserve may not combat squad, unless it is in a pod, in that case it combat squads when it hits the table. But are GK bound by that rule?
Jawaballs
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29 comments:
While I'll get back to you on the rules (I have thought about situation 1 before, but I forget my conclusion).
It does sound like a job for Rules Lawyer Xethik!
Now, for the bully part, I have just experienced something like that. It was myself!
I entered a tournament this weekend where I was very open minded and there to have a good time. I even gave opponents cover saves they didn't really have perhaps or let them redo something if they forgot without a thought otherwise. It's just how I was in the mood for playing. However, game 2 I set up a really nice two objective grab with my 6 Terminators and my Librarian. The objectives were only 18" apart, and I was stretched between the two of them with 12" of movement left, with more than enought space to grab both. I even was planning on having the Librarian leave the squad and run the the other side of the table for some bonus battle points. My opponent, however, said I wasn't going to be able to get both. I almost raged at him, explaining my 24" range was more than enough to get the two 18" apart objectives, but then I realized, why would I care? It's just a game, even if I tie on paper, it means nothing to me, so I let him have his point and got a tie.
At the end of the day, though I went 1 win, 1 loss, 1 tie, I managed to win a $50 Deff Dread kit due to Best Sportsmanship/Favorite Opponent, so I definitely learned that if you're not going to place, why argue over small things like that? In the end, you might be better off.
Situation 1:
Only belial is broken of from the combat. Ofc Mphiston and the one squad of DW stay locked in combat. It's a strategy some ppl use to "free" squads from unwanted longdrawn combats.
Situation 2:
You have to declare before the game starts that a squad is combatsquading. Except for droppods for some reason I don't know.
Terminators can not combat squad when deepstriking if they haven't stated so before the game started (deployment). And you then roll for each seperate combatsquad to see if they come on from reserve or not.
My interpretation. :)
Jawa,
my understanding of the Grey Knight Terminator thing is that they a 10 man unit can combat squad when deploying
(p. 21 of the codex - 'the decision must be made when the unit is deployed' and 'both combat squads can be deployed in separate locations')
It doesn't give any restrictions so my view has always been when you deep-strike (or come on any other way) you declare you are combat squading, split the troops how you want and then go for it.
So, pedantically I would disagree with what you wrote 'Grey Knight terminators can deep strike and combat squad upon landing' - you have to combat squad first and then both units are treated separately (ie. you'd have to roll for each one for deep strike).
An interesting aside though, if you have to combat squad before you deploy does that mean you:
1. Roll for reserve for the 10 men
2. Then combat squad
or
1. Declare combat squad
2. Roll for reserve for each
My view would be for the first option as it says combat squad made when deployed.
You are not combat-squadding in reserve... you're combat-squadding on deployment. Any unit that can Deep-Strike and Combat Squad can do this. It's a common mis-conception.
TKE wrote a whole article on it over on Mindwar FTW a while back.
The first situation... I would say only the units that cannot reach combat (Belial only in your example) would consolidate, not all of the units. For all of the units to consolidate would be just silly.
I'm going to disagree with the ruling on the first situation. I think for both RaI and RaW that the Terminators and Mephiston should have stayed engaged and Belial should have consolidated. From a RaI point of view that makes sense: the other guys still have fighting to do, but unfortunately Belial is left out so he has to go somewhere else. For RaW, I'd direct you to page 41 of the BRB, last paragraph, "the unit mus move as close as possible to the enemy to allow them to pile into contact." It doesn't say who the enemy piles into contact with. Furthermore, under Consolidation on p 40 of the BRB, "if a unit's opponents are all either destroyed or falling back, so that the victorious unit is no longer locked in combat with any enemy, they may consolidate." Mephiston and the Terminators have opponents that are not destroyed/falling back. In terms of Belial getting into combat and also to reinforce Mephiston and the Terminators being in combat, I'd refer you to Who Can Fight on p 35 in the BRB, "Units that have one or more model in base contact with enemies are said to be 'locked in combat'." This would indicate that Belial isn't locked and can consolidate, while the Terminators and Mephiston are locked and are not allowed to consolidate. I could also present an argument to rule the other way as well. I think this duality of arguments is because GW didn't consider that a unit would be surrounded- only that it would be so far away that it couldn't get in base contact.
Belial consolidates - everyone else keeps fighting. You only get broken out of combat if you can't make it to BTB - so those that could keep on going and now Meph can run around and punch stuff.
And on issue 2 - the big thing is that when you are in reserves you are not deployed. You are deployed when you are place on the table - thus you can combat squad when you hit the table due to being only able to combat squad when you deploy. You roll one dice to see if they come in as when they are off the table and sitting in reserves they are considered not deployed.
But yeah - number one they ruled wrong - think of it this way - why would you jump out of combat because you couldn't dance around one guy - if you can't get there you are broken out of combat - if you can get there you stay beating on each other.
unfortunatly Goatboys ruling about the situation is based on his opinion without a shred of RaW backing. Yes it might sound stupid for all combat to break, however RAW supports it.
Bullies...,'actions speak louder than words- and by his words shall you know his intent.' I'm curious if you noticed how the bully's various opponents seemed to react to him? Did anyone call him out?
I have been getting some good schoolin' at my Local Games Shop of late on rules. I will attempt to answer your questions:
With regard to the first scenario: Belial should have made a pile-in move, attempting to get as close as possible to Mephiston (reference; page 40 of 5th Edition Hardbound, Section: Pile In, paragraph 3; '...if for some reason his model's pile-in moves are insufficient to move into base to base contact with an enemy involved in that fight, that player must move them as close as possible to such enemies...if both units' moves combined (thats more than 12 inches, very unlikely!) would be insufficient to bring the units back together, the assault comes to an end and both sides may make consolidation moves instead...'.
Page 49, same book; Section: Independent Characters and Assaults, 'When a unit is reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move, Independent Characters must move before other friendly characters in order to get into base to base contact with an enemy if at all possible (otherwise they will not be able to fight).
By your description of the scenario, Belial's unit was destroyed, a friendly unit had consolidated around Mephiston during the onset of the assault so that, once pile-in moves had to be made Belial could not get into Base to base. Unless Belial was more than 12 inches from Mephiston, he should have attempted to get as close as possible to Mephiston during the pile-in. According to IC rules, he would not have been able to swing on the following assault turn...
Scenario 2: TKE wrote a wonderful blog post that explains reserves as the rules (and FAQ) are written. I will not reconstruct all of it, however, I will say that combat squads do not occur until actual deployment.
Deployment (when deep-striking, or coming out of reserve) does not occur in the deployment phase. In fact, to declare combat squads in the deployment phase for any reserved units would actually break the rule(s) as they are written.
When a unit that is able to combat squad is placed on the table (arrives out of reserves), then it may break down into combat squads.
I simplified the scenario to get to the root of the discussion. In the actual situation, Belial was locked with The Sanguinor, and eventually killed him with the help of another squad of termies. After a few rounds of piling in, that left Mephiston surrounded and Belial's squad totally dead. So While the combat was going on, the squad that jumped in to save Belial also got in base with Meph. Right before combat broke, the only slot open to get Belial in B2B was too far for him to reach with a 6" move. So, a unit involved with the assault was left unengaged. That left the situation where according to the rules "both sides consolidate."
re jawballs
Per your expanded view of the combat there is a chance that during combat Belial ended his movement phase within 2" of the other squad thus joining them.
-) If he isn't part of the unit and can't make it to B2B he walks away from the combat.
-) If at some point he joined the unit in the movement phase, he moves close as he can and stands there in combat.
On the combat squad. You roll for the 10 man squad to arrive from reserves (one roll) then before deployment declare if they are splitting into 2 squads. The drop pod rule is there to clarify the squad is deploying from the drop pod and thus 2 squads are formed from one drop pod.
You cannot join or leave squads during Close Combat. Page 48. If it is impossible for both sides to pile into combat, both sides consolidate. Page 41. That is pretty clear wording. I agree it does not make much sense, but in this case, Belial is a separate unit, and cannot pile in.
I never saw this happen before all these single unit models started bouncing around like Mephiston and The Sanguinor.
If I understand correctly, Mephiston was surrounded by termies the turn that Belial broke combat?
Second question; was the distance from Belial to Mephiston greater than six inches (not the distance Belial would have to travel in order to get into base to base)?
Quoting the official FAQ v.1.4, Page 3, Column 2:
'Q: An Independent Character attached to a unit that is
reacting to being assaulted, or making a pile-in move,
must move before other friendly models to attempt to
get in base contact with an enemy. What happens if
the Independent Character is blocked from getting to
enemy models by friendly models around him? (p49)
A: If it is possible to move friendly models out of the
way to make space for the Independent Character then
they must move first. Followed by the Independent
Character and finally the rest of the unit can move. If
the Independent Character is still unable to make it
into base contact he must move as close to the enemy
as possible.'
According to the FAQ, if Belial was six inches away from Mephiston, he would still have to consolidate as close as possible (and be wrapped in combat), but not necessarily in base to base contact with Mephiston.
This would have proven beneficial to you if the following round of combat had swung in Mephiston's favor (and with his initiative, and unleash rage, the odds were on Mephiston).
Belial could have been a victim of a sweeping advance!
Yah, Mephiston was surrounded in such a way by members of other units that the only open slot for Belial to get B2B, was too far for belial to reach.
From the latest Space Marine FAQ V1.2:
Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other
combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but
not in the Drop Pod? (p69)
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may
not break down into combat squads.
From the Blood Angels V1.2
Q: Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other
combat squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but
not in the Drop Pod? (p32)
A: No, because squads that are placed in reserve may
not break down into combat squads.
Dark Angels V1.1:
Q. Can you take a Drop Pod with a 10-man squad and
then put a combat squad in it, deploying the other combat
squad on the table, or leave it in reserve but not in the
Drop Pod? (p35)
A. No, because squads that are placed in reserve may not
break down into combat squads.
Grey Knights V1.1 does not answer it but while we are on Combat Squads here is an interesting bit:
Q: If a unit is the target of Unyielding Anvil, from the
Grand Strategy special rule, and it splits into combat
squads, can both combat squads claim objectives? (p22)
A: Yes.
Also, the other Marine FAQs are either not as current or the FAQ was not included.
Hmm, missed a part of my post...
I would use the same logic for all combat squads.
Only the use of a drop pod would allow a squad in reserve to combat squad.
As for Grey Knights, if they teleport in, they would not be able to deploy separately until the shooting phase to run. Therefore I would say they cannot combat squad after Deep Striking.
You can not place a combat squad into reserve, correct. But if you placed the entire 10 man squad into reserve- you are allowed to break them into combat squads when they -deploy- from reserves.
The fact that it specifically says that you deploy post making your reserve rolls makes it legal to do as per the combat squad rules.
Yeah, it cut off part of mine too-
To continue on my post...
You are not specifically breaking them down into combat squads in reserve, but when they are being deployed from reserves. This makes it possible because they are not deployed until you successfully roll for them to arrive from reserves. Hence, you couldn't have even decided to break them into combat squads due to them not being deployed yet, as per the combat squads rules on page 51 of Codex : Space Marine and Page 23 of Codex : Blood Angels.
Also, the reference page for the reserve rules is page 94 of the 5th Edition Warhammer 40k rulebook. :)
Part of the issue at hand with situation 2 is that the GK player was being FAQed not by a GK FAQ or a BRB FAQ but by a FAQ from another army. Yes another marine army (or 3) but not his army.
Just because one codex allows or forbids something doesnt mean they all do.
You cant use C:SM to rule on C:SW or C:BA to rule on C:GK. It just dosent work that way.
Thats not entirely true Tordeck. It's called precedent. When C: BA came out, it had the issue with Vindicators being printed wrong. They were weaker than all other marine books. But the other books set the precedent on how they should be used, and every single venue I played at used the other books to make the ruling. (BA Vindicators worked the same as C:SM Vindicators) And sure enough, it was eventually FAQed.
Precedent does not apply to any/all rule systems, and it is only binding in common law. It can be used in its simple defined sense to support an argument, but it is not an argument in and of itself.
True but the point remains. Based on how the rules were written in different, but similar books, event organizers over-ruled the printed rules in Codex: Blood Angels, much to the chagrin of their opponents. Every one knew that it was a misprint, but that did not stop all non blood angels players from attempting to enforce the weaker Vindicators.
By the way I have not yet fostered a side in this discussion. I am just helping guide conversation. :)
This just came in from Ragnar, a local dominant force on the GT scene:
In the absence of the clear rule to the contrary, a ruling in one FAQ can be and often is used for a similar situation from another codex. As an example, the Blood Angels FAQ tells us when you measure to determine whether a squad benefits from Furious Assault from a Sang Priest (at the time the benefit is used; not at the beginning of the phase before you move the models). This applies equally to termagants benefitting from a Tervigon’s radius powers. For another example, the answer that Shield of Sanguinius gives a cover save to vehicles, combined with the wording change for Storm Caller (change to “Model” instead of “squad”, IIRC) in the SW FAQ, make clear that Storm Caller also applies to vehicles. There have been a number of important rulings like this over the years which have appeared in the FAQ for one codex, but applied to others. Back in 4th, for example, there was a key clarification about Glancing hits on Skimmers which appeared in the Eldar FAQ, but applied to every skimmer in the game.
In regards to Jawa’s original rules questions:
1. Belial has to use his normal 6” Pile-In to attempt to make base. And then any unengaged enemy models have to try to base him. If they can’t get into contact this way, he’s broken off.
2. Units placed in reserve (per page 94) are placed in Reserve “instead of deploying”. And when they Reserve, they are “deployed onto the table” (ibid). Combat squadding happens when a unit is deployed; whether that happens at the beginning of the game or when they arrive from reserve. So if a 10 man squad of terminators is Deep Striking, you roll once for the whole thing for Reserve rolls, then once you know they’re showing up, you can state “I am combat-squadding them”, and deep strike the (now) two units separately. What the Drop Pod question was clarifying was that a squad can’t be split WHILE it’s in Reserve. So you can’t put (for example) half of a squad in a Pod, and deploy the other half onto the table. Or half in a Razorback in reserve, and half on the table.
We seem to be approaching a consensus on the Deep Strike Combat Squad issue. So, does this indeed work for Vanguard Vets with Heroic Intervention? Can I Combat Squad a group of 10 Blood Angels VV, after using Descent of Angels to Heroic Intervention and assault two different targets? I was previously under the impression that no, I could not combat squad them from reserve.
I believe it works like this.
You have one 10 man squad in reserve, and roll for the single squad. As soon as you get your reserves you split the unit and each half deepstrikes separately. SO of your vanguard example it would be.
As for the Belial issue, if he is within 6" of Mephiston it is not possible for him to not pile in. If Mephiston is surrounded you move friendly models out of the way and move Belial into BTB. Now the above could happen with a non IC, at which point that squad is no longer involved in combat, and makes a consolidation move.
Roll for 1 unit of 10 vanguards.
If they come in you decide to split them, you deploy each combat squad.
The not being able to combat squad in reserves means that you don't roll reserves separately for each half of the squad, it also means that you cannot put half a squad in a drop pod and walk the other half onto the board.
Edit because punctuation helps reading comprehension ;)
Yes, Jawa, you can combat squad a 10-man Vanguard Vet squad into two, 5-man squads. Once the 10-man squad deploys onto the table (the turn it arrives from reserve).
Each relative combat squad may deep strike autonomous from the other- each combat squad may assault different target(s).
To clarify wording: Squads in reserve may not divide into combat squads. Units may form into combat squads when deployed onto the gaming table.
For issue #2.
You deployed your unit in reserve. You cannot combat squad in reserve. You cannot have a 10 man GKT squad deep strike from reserve in combat squads.
Ivan where does it say that? According to the rules people have been quoting, you can! Well, to be accurate, you are not in reserve in Combat Squads. It does not happen until they hit the table.
Seriously combat squads it not that complicated.
Before I begin, deployment is defined by when the physical units come onto the table. This is why, before the movement phase we have a deployment phase to check and see if any units come out of reserve.
Deep Strike:
Make one roll for the unit
If they come in make 2 separate rolls for deep strike
Deploy
Outflanking:
Make one roll for the unit
If they come on, make one roll to see which side they come on
Both parts deploy on the same side
Reserves
Make one roll for the unit
If they come in, both units are free to act on the home table edge
The reason why games workshop added that little tid bit to drop pods is because people were taking 10 man tactical squads and putting five on the table and five in the pod which is no good.
It is either the squad is completely on the table in turn one or the squad is completely off the table.
In the example of deep striking above, you could not put 5 terminators on the table while the other 5 deep strike. So you have two options, place both units down on turn one or resolve the deep striking procedure as I have outlined above. Both combat squads have to do the same thing. If you are going to outflank, they both outflank. If you are going to reserve they both have to reserve, etc etc
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