The Jawaballs Video of the Month!

DaBoyz GT!

Ok Folks, sorry this took so long to get posted, but it has been sitting in queue over at Bell of Lost Souls for quite some time, so I figured they didn't want it and I would post it up here instead.


Jawaballs here!

WARNING: Pic Heavy post.

I just had the pleasure of attending DaBoyz GT in Rochester, NY and thought I would share some of the experience with you!

DaBoyz has been around for several years, and in the past I have always avoided it because it was proudly a comp heavy tournament.  In case you don't know what that means, "comp" refers to army composition. The tournament had rules in place which restricted what units you could play, or penalized you for playing certain combinations.

The goal was to promote more fair army lists and avoid some of the abusive cut throat lists that we see popping up all over the place and usually end up fighting it out for first after leaving a trail of bloodied "fluff" players in their wake.

I admire the intentions, but don't agree with being told what I can or can't play in a tournament. At DaBoyz, playing named characters was a no no and I believe playing two of them was illegal. The army I painted for The Nova Open 2011 with the intention of just putting pretty models on the table and contending for "best painted" would have been illegal at DaBoyz and overall that army had a losing record!

You didn't have to follow the comp suggestions, but failing to do so pretty much meant you had no chance of winning DaBoyz.  Some dudes defiantly went any way with nasty lists. Sometimes slaughtering all comers just to finish not even in the top five, some doing much worse.

To their credit, they were always transparent in this regard which is something I very much respect. I chose not to go because I disagreed with the rules, and it amazed me when guys that did go, despite the rules, complained about it and posted up negative press.

DaBoyz developed a devoted following none the less.

However you feel about comp, and for good or for poor, this year it did not matter. DaBoyz dropped their comp requirements. Mostly due to the unknown nature of 6th edition.  As Mike Brandt pointed out for The Nova, this fall was the Wild West in the 40k GT circuit. It would be too difficult to assign comp scores when no one knows what is unfair, or at least more unfair than any thing else.

Jay Woodcock and Shuan Kemp, the primary organizers, suggested I come check it out in light of articles I had written in the past about my comp feelings and their decision to drop it. So I agreed! Plus Goatboy and Brent went last year and I was hoping to meet up with them again. (they didn't go this year... sad face)

So off I went, packing up Brother Captain James and Bobby Sinnott of Battle for Salvation, and making the nearly seven hour drive.

This year DaBoyz was scored using a max of 348 possible points. 198 were battle points (six games at 33 points max a piece), while paint and sportsman were 80 and 60 respectively and there were ten bonus points for turning in your list early.

The GT ran fairly smooth and on time.  But it was a very relaxed affair, and almost seemed as if they were "winging" it.  It was too loose. This may have suited them well in the more jovial format they used in the past where sportsmanship and fluff were encouraged over competition, but in a situation where the rules were opened up you can be sure that the WAAC players would be making their presence known. You can't have lax rules with them around because people get their pants in a hissy.

In my opinion, things could have been tightened up a bit.  I was talking to Shuan Kemp and referenced Mike Brandt's running of The Nova. I know that DaBoyz is no Nova, and nor should it be, but Mike can definitely be used as an example of some one who runs a good event.

First, Mike predicted as many rules issues as possible and printed rulings for them, pointing out which established FAQ's were in play, and writing his own for certain circumstances.  He used the internet to get feedback to make these rulings as comprehensive as possible.

Like it or not, he left little to be debated at the start of The Nova. Smart move.

 Mike also has a team of generals who handle things like rules disputes. When there were issues, the low ranking rules judges would solve them, or pass it up the line to the rules general while Mike focused on being "The Face" of The Nova. Only if it was something extraordinary did the issue go all the way up to Mike, and in those cases, he decided with finality. But almost never made a direct response, but rather funneled it down through chain of command. The TO should be fairly hands off when it comes to the many small things that pop up. At DB, the TO Shaun was routinely forced to make rulings at individual tables. This sort of pits the TO in an adversarial role which is something I advise against. When the TO is making all the rules calls, then there is going to be a large number of dudes who beef the TO!  Never a good thing.

Also, sometimes a rules judge would make a call, but the players would override him and drag the TO into it.

Other issues cropped up with the unclear rules.

For example, what happens when the round is nearing a close? What happens if there is only ten minutes left on the clock but one of the guys wants another turn? One player may need just another assault phase and is willing to forego his shooting and moving to get to it, so pressures his opponent to squeeze in another turn, forcing that opponent to rush his turn so the guy can zoom through to the only thing that matters to him. Most times this can be quick easy and fun to resolve! Like if two dudes are just playing for pride and want to resolve a combat between Dante and Calgar. A strict enforcement of the rules would not apply. But some times a guy may want to force another turn because he will have a pure advantage.  It is unfair to the other guy who may need more time to fairly consider his turn, rather than rush through

"Oh come on dude, we can fit in another round in three minutes!"

Or it goes another way. At DB in the 5th round one of the top tables started one last turn right before the clock ticked off and were allowed to play it out, not finishing their game for at least half an hour after dice down because at the end of regulation one of them was going to lose and felt that he could win if they had another turn.

These particular guys spent the first half hour of the game arguing about how rules work. I will pick up that particular argument on my blog! It was not fair to the other 74 guys who finished their game within the time allotted, some of them no doubt rushing to do so or ending in circumstances against their liking. Plus the guys inputting all the info to the computer do need time to sort out the next round...

There should b e a pre-established decision for this situation. I believe The Nova rules that no new turns are started within 15 minutes of rounds end. I don't know how BOLS does it at Wargamescon, but I'm sure it is something similar.

A clearly defined ranking of the officers, and a thorough set of printed rules are a must. I think we can all agree that a tight ship is a must for a proper GT. At least the TO of DaBoyz recognized this and filed it away for next year!

To be fair, I just spent more time writing about this situation than was actually used to resolve it and it was really something small, but it should not have come up at all.  I like to give examples of what I witness!


More Cons? Believe me they are few and minor.

The biggest one that I saw with DaBoyz was the venue. Inconvenient. And I will say this about every event that is held outside of the place where people are staying.  The event was held in a cafeteria at the University of Rochester. At first glance, this is not a bad thing, as there is a little food court right next door, and the venue was fairly nice. There was a good amount of space, and I have definitely seen more cramped tables at other GTs.  But this place was a few miles away from the hotel.  But also, the parking lot was a good ways away from the hall, and when it filled the overflow lot was even further.






At Mechanicon for example when it was held in PA, we were able to actually leave our armies in the room over night if we dared. The room was secure. (I left mine) At the very least we could haul our gear to our room and set up our models on our display, then carry it down to the room. We were not sure about security over night at DB so we had to pack up our armies in the transports and haul them out to the cars, back and forth into the hotel, etc.

This is mostly just an inconvenience though.  To me the real issue is the fractured group. I like to go to these things for the social aspect. And I'm not just talking about 40k in between games social. Shootin the shit while we wait for our next opponent. I am talking about really getting to know friends, like drinking Whiskey with Brandt or playing Talisman with Tony Spino until 3am.  I was sad when the games broke up on Saturday night, and most every one disappeared.  Some of the best times I have had at GTs was the after hours sitting at the hotel bar, or better yet, drinking beers right in the gaming room.  And frankly, these times are the primary reason I go to GTs to begin with.

I don't know for a fact, but I believe we were not officially allowed to drink at the hall.  I could have really used a few beers during game four!

One last complaint.

And I say this about every GT that goes more than five games.  Too many games.  In my experience, six to eight game GTs are just too much. Three games in one day is plenty. First, this gives us more time to be social. But also, that fourth game is rarely played with enthusiasm or fun.  I have to say I enjoyed my fourth game on Saturday, but it was obvious that both of us were ready to be finished, and in my opinion, that was clear with the guys to my left and right.

The organizers say that five games is not enough to declare a clear winner. Conflict GT, Nova and DaBoyz all said the same. However, Mechanicon which is a five game GT, never seems to have a problem figuring out who wins!  I forget where I saw this, but just have the players keep a victory point total for each game to use as a tie breaker. I believe that is one of the last tie breakers at Nova.  Tallying that much math for 8 games may be a chore since counting when you are that burned out is tough, but if there are only five games we can handle it much easier! Too much of a good thing is not always a good thing!

Oh and it was too close to Canada. Too many Canadians. :)  Just kidding my northern bruthas!

Pros?

Atmosphere.

I referenced the laid back approach to DaBoyz. Well that happens to be one of it's best traits.  It is sort of refreshing to go to a GT and not have a bunch of guys yelling rules at you.  I don't remember where but I went to a GT where the judges were constantly shouting at the players for moving terrain because there was no place else for them to put their displays.  It became really annoying. At DaBoyz it was almost an atmosphere of "You are all adults and experienced, do the right thing."  And 99% of the guys do. It was a no sweat GT. If terrain got moved, we just moved it back. No need to get a judge to do it.

Another part of the atmosphere is the history of DaBoyz.  Having it's roots in a more fluffy approach, DaBoyz draws some hard core hobbiest players.  My first opponent, Ricky Johnson from Canada, had one of the prettiest Tau/Eldar armies I have ever seen. It was gorgeous, with all models uniquely Tau or Eldar, but at the same time, sharing a common theme.  It was a pleasure to play against that army. But also, it was amazingly deadly. This army was planned out to the model, and made the best use of points and combinations you could imagine. Every unit had a role and did it's job well, and the guy ended up taking third best overall, as well as being among the top three painted armies and scoring a lot of points for Player's Choice.  I think there were more breathtaking armies at this GT than any other I have ever been to.  Before game five they had us set up the top armies for display, and I counted at least a dozen armies that would have won best painted at any other GT.  Kudos!

Scoring!

Sure there were battle points. But DB rewards the hobby. The painter's and Sportemen who usually just get their basic points and no further reward for being outstanding at something other than beating face.

The paint score had it's basic rubric, but as an encouragement to be the best, the top ten got additional points above and beyond the rubric. Then to push it even further, the top three got even more! I believe the top three got 20 bonus points total.  That could be a huge swing, affecting the outcome of the top five players overall and I think made the difference this year.

The sportsman scoring was similarly beneficial. Instead of the standard "was your opponent on time, yes or no" checklist which usually left the winner of Sportsman up to a battle point tie breaker (a second best general), you ranked your opponents. They gave us a list and we wrote down our opponents names.  At the end of the event we ranked them, 1 through 6.  One being the best.  So if a dude managed to play six games and get all 1, then he was a truly good sport and deserved the win.  I don't know how the points broke down, but the range of sportsman scores went from 16 to 53.

Both of these aspects worked to make DaBoyz a better GT than most.

Venue!  Sure I listed it as a con, but the place was cool.  The room was huge, and had an upper catwalk type level that held more tables.  There was plenty of space. The tables themselves were a bit weak, in most cases just being some felt rolled out with terrain spread out, but the terrain was mostly good.  In only one game did I play on a terrain weak table, and I luckily got the one good ruin. The poor nid player had to charge his big bugs into my assault cannons with no cover. It did not go well for him.

There was a decent college food court attached to the building via tunnel. I felt like I was in school again for the fourth time!  It was nice to see something you don't usually see at a GT... girls! :)

Ahh college, how I miss thee.

DaBoyz was filled to the brim with great guys. I have to say that the quality of opponent has been improving steadily over the years. In the first couple years it was not uncommon to encounter some real jerks, but that is happening less and less.  The guys at DaBoyz break that rule.  There was a very small minority of "that guy" with the vast majority of guys being personable and friendly, if not well mannered while beating in my face.

Speaking of getting my face beat in, I finished three and three on the weekend, in 28th out of 76.  I was in the top ten for sportsman and fifth in painting. The latter two I consider great feats considering the huge amount of greats armies and dudes.

I will save the breakdown of all of my games for another time, but the short of it is that allies are here in force. 6th Ed is for sure The Wild Wild West and I honestly don't think there is ever going to be a single codex "Leafblower" again.

As I said, my first opponent was playing a Tau/Eldar list. Previously both armies would have been laughed off the table at a major GT. Occasionally one of them would slip into the top three or even win, but mostly they were forgotten xenos races. Well, 6th Ed has ushered in a resurgence of both.

Hers are some pics of Ricky Johnson's  beautiful and deadly army.





He had some sweet conversions and my pics don't do the army justice.  He also integrated the Tau and Dar nicely, painting them differently but utilizing the same theme.  Well done..

Here are some more pics of other armies.

A Lamenters player at his first tournament with his 
first army. Brutal choice!


My ramshackle army!



Very nice spinning display.




Best Painted Eldar





I loved this Land Raider

I hate Orks but props to these beautiful models


What the...

Ben (Do we need to bother
with his last name?) 
was in the house, taking Best General of course

Look for many more pics when I do batreps on my blog!

I think DaBoyz was an outstanding GT.  The armies were above average, most of the players were extremely well behaved, every thing ran smooth, and the TOs were definitely concerned about every one getting the most out of their weekend. They can use some spit and polish as they convert from a primarily fluffy GT to a more competitive one, but overall have a very laid back and refreshing atmosphere. 

I was not thrilled with the venue, but I want to add that DaBoyz supports the RU college gaming group and sends a lot of money towards charity.  It is definitely NOT run for profit, which cannot be said of some other GTs.  They probably got a really good deal on it. Can't beat that!  I would still prefer a self contained hotel, or at least a bar in the room!

While I was driving home I found myself grumbling about not wanting to return because of the LONG drive for me, just about 7 hours, but once I got over that, I found myself already planning my army for next year and looking forward to seeing Shaun and Jay again!  So long as next years date does not conflict with The Mechanicon, I will be there!  

Be sure to check MY BLOG often for my weekly The Walking Dead reviews, pics of my armies, batreps and more.

More to come...

Jawaballs

15 comments:

Andrew G said...

No love for my army or getting best overall?

*sniffle* color me offended!

You can make it up to me by posting the Walking Dead reviewsssss!

Jawaballs said...

Hah you get enough props because you seem to own EVERY Gt! Actually though I meant to give props to you but forgot. There were a couple of topics I meant to discuss but over the few days it took to write the article, over looked... :(

You deserve Best Overall because you not only have a nicely painted army, and beat face, but you manage to do it and still get a great sportsman score. You are friendly, personable, genuine and fun to play against. Despite your abusive propensity for playing the flavor of the month! :) Just playing man!

Jawaballs said...

Oh and I will try to get some TWD up today. Ive been really busy actually working at work. I have to turn in lesson plans in a couple weeks. :)

Andrew G said...

Lol, I had to poke a bit, sorry! This may sound odd but even though Best Overall is usually my goal (I like the combo hobbyist/gaming award) what I'd really like is to one day qualify for/maybe even win a best painted army award. Between you and Joe Johnson and all of the other good painters on the East Coast, that bar is constantly running away from me though!

And lesson plans? Pshaw! We all know those take no more than 5 minutes each, you had your summer off, lazy teacher!
(full on sarcasm, I used to be a teacher)

Looking forward to TWD reviews once you get to em, the last couple episodes have been epic!

Jawaballs said...

The painting competition on the east coast is tough as nails. Joe and Gabe Dobkin are no joke. But it is not fair to just name them! Bob Evers, Ted Nagel, Tim Williamson and many many more dudes are always at the top. People who say painters don't compete for Best Painted aren't among the contenders! I have friendly rivalries with Bob and Joe and I am gunning for you Gabe! But while friendly, the rivalries are fierce.

Your stuff always looks VERY well done. But at the same time, your displays always look.. well.. average. Don't work alone. In my last major army I bounced my work off my friend Jim every day, including my display. You are not too far from me I would be happy to provide honest and helpful feed back!

Hell I am trying to figure out a display for my Lamenters... no clue where to begin... any ideas?

Andrew G said...

I'll totally agree on all of those names, and at Da Boyz there were even more due to the canadian guys that came down.

I think on my displays I always have worked on them last and went for more of a function over form approach, ie, the most durable/best way to carry the army around and fit the most on the board, rather than creating a scene/diorama or really going to lots of intricate nuances. Mind you, that last 2 level display still took a ton of time and effort and includes a couple hundred rivets - I don't think you've gotten to see it though, I had it at Adepticon last year, as well as this past NOVA. You can see it (albeit at a distance) here: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-C0Al2bKO9a0/T5fI8OtKpuI/AAAAAAAAAbo/94vNm-vM-g0/s1600/full.JPG

I chatted with Joe J. at BFS about how to improve my painting, and he commented similarly to what you just said, I'm about as good as I'm going to get until I start painting with other people who are better than me (or at the very least getting feedback from them) - as it is I feel I've stagnated a bit in army appearance over the last couple years. I need to buckle down I think and start painting things more for enjoyment/random models, then for armies/events. Too much push to get x number of y identical friggin model done killing every moderately creative bone in my body.

Thanks for the painting/other comments, they've given me a bit of the kick in pants I need to actually pick up a brush again (which I haven't done in probably a month). Next time I get something done I'll shoot an email/photo your way to get some comments if you don't mind.

Jawaballs said...

I think you have come to a realization that hit me a couple years ago. I was sitting at number one on Rankings HQ... I know... who cares right? But I was pushing to keep the rank, and my painting was taking a back seat. I was playing armies I was not proud of. Finally it clicked, and I decided to ease up on the pressure to keep competitive armies that grew stagnant, and instead focused on painting for the love of painting. And the competition. That bore my 2011 Nova army, which won a handful of GT best painted.

As I see it, you have to make a choice, rely on your nice painting, sportsman and playing to maintain a lock on Best Overall, which you can do, or push for that elusive Best Painted... which in my opinion, is the better prize! That is something based more on skill than a title reliant on which cheezeball list you play.

Oh, and I think that pic reflects exactly what I was saying. Knowing what I do about building such displays, I know what you put into it. However, forgive me but it just looks boring!

Tip one: Symmetry is NOT your friend. Yes armies line up in symmetrical lines... but the army is boring. Look at the guy who won best painted at DaBoyz... a multi level, well built, asymmetrical display accentuated his army and made it more interesting.

If you remember my display, it was not symmetrical, but still very balanced, with the lines and arrangement of the display actually leading the eye around... That was on purpose. Yours is almost a chore to behold! Even your purity seals, which are a nice touch on their own, sort of take away from the display, or add to it's linear, uninteresting set up. I totally get the coolness of the elevators lifting the transports, and the skill used to make this display, but in terms of a Best Painted... it doesnt do any thing for your army.

If you want to talk more about this stuff, you know my email! I am an art teacher after all! But honestly I don't see any reason why we couldnt plan a little east coast get together... Bill McFadden, Ed Miller, Bill Souza, even Ted, all live within a couple hours drive and all are good painters. Maybe we should plan a little meeting of the minds! :)

Jawaballs said...

OH and color matters. The majority color of your display is the same color as your models. (or close) On my display my models were mostly reds, and my display was a a combination of complimentary greens, and shades of brown. (Brown is mostly neutral but compliments red still)

Your army is mostly cool greys and blues and silvers. You want to compliment them with kahkis and mustards. They would much more pop on a wind swept desert scene, perhaps with some mustard colored ruins with orange accents.

Jawaballs said...

Oh and the brown on my display matched the brown accents on my models... belts, straps etc. :) I used the same recipe.

Andrew G said...

Thanks for all the tips, they're much appreciated - I'll shoot you an email probably in the next couple days to chat about some ideas! As you can see in the models and displays I do, I'm very much an ordered, symmetrical, type of mind so I find my default setting is always to do things that way (0 art background though I find it enjoyable, and a Masters in Science heavy in math/technical knowledge). Those sorts of mindsets don't always lend themselves well to art, but I'm trying :)

I struggle with which award to pursue, and don't think I'll ever really settle on one, I just have too much fun doing the whole gammut of the hobby (super tough games and painting), but I think I need to balance my approach with some more hobby side since it can be a good outlet at home - I've got 6 GT wins now I believe, there's no point in focusing on beating a dead horse. Honestly since 6th hit, I've found its much less about the list, and more about the player. With allies everyone can bring something pretty relevant, and I didn't have one "easy" game or game I knew I'd locked before it started at Da Boyz, which did occur from time to time in 5th. The other thing is - I basically havent practiced outside of GT's in 6th. With a heavy work schedule, painting takes so much time at home I have trouble mentally committing to, but gaming? I've gamed 7 times (literally) since 6th came out in July: 2 RTTS, 3 GT's, and 2 1-off pickup games and still managed to stay in the top rungs - you definitely can't do that with painting!

Honestly what semi killed the painting side for me was a couple years in a row primarily at one event, but it happened at others - I felt I got robbed in ludicrous fashion on painting. I went from receiving scores at numerous events that were all about the same, ~80% and ranked below armies I knew were superior to mine (about where I feel I belong) for a couple years and then at a couple consecutive events getting utterly silly scores and seeing armies scored far higher that were far worse. Painting as you said is the part I've always felt you can control - once you feel like there's no reliability in the judging, it's hard to get motivated to paint when you get scores that say "tabletop" and "no highlights" and "average" at a couple events with models that were primarily blended (robes, a majority of the models) and heavily highlighted on the rest. but I think the real lesson I should take away from that is that I should paint for myself/the enjoyment, rather than awards/tournaments/etc., because I'll probably never be satisfied if I do it that way.

Your point on complimentary colors is one I think I will (and should pursue). It's one I've heard echoed from feedback at events on my army - it's too much of the same sort of color (silver, greys, etc), though the red robes help a bit. I love the idea of the sandy/dune setting as I've always wanted to use these/do something like these : http://www.shop.microartstudio.com/desert-bases-round-25mm-p-681.html

I'll keep the rest of my long winded responses to email, sorry! :) Off to read TWD review!

PS - You should do a post on display tips, about things like symmetry and color choice, I know it seems obvious but it's actually not something I'd really considered before you said it above.

Jawaballs said...

One of those events would not happen to have been The Colonial two years ago?

Jared Friedman said...

Hey! So I was that guy in the 5th round on had to deal with another turn; So to give more information -

a) I was playing Grey Knights. I blame Target.
b) My opponent was Tyranids, with 2 Hive Tryants, 2 Mawlocs, 2 Tervigons, Hive Guard, and some Gaunts. I'll let you guess who it was against.
c) His argument was that the Mawloc specifically states that it does not Mishap when it comes in from Burrow (and touches a model), so it would not suffer a mishap due to Warpquake. Even though he tried this the previously day *against* Andrew.
d) I went second.

So we play our game. Not a lot of rules disputes actually *during* the game. At the end, with about 8 minutes to go, I finish my turn. We tally everything up, and with all the math, I've won. A lot of judges are standing around (mainly due to the other player, but also because we were playing right in front of the TO table). The other player wanted to continue, I wanted to stop. There was a large discussion amongst the judges, to which they said that they hadn't been calling Dice Down, and so we were to continue.

A few sketchy things;

a) He deployed a unit of Gaunts inside a Spore out 6", when the rules for the spore specifically say a 2" deployment (and this has not be FAQ'd). That 6" deployment got them out of range of Coteaz and "I've been expecting you" *and* that gaunt unit was able to tie up one of my units in hand to hand as well as shoot at another unit - by all rights I should have been able to shoot the gaunt unit which would have changed the entire outcome of that quarter.

b) Claimed that units shot with (i cant remember the name of the gun, but if you take wound and are forced to take a morale check, it's at -1 LD) had to take a morale check regardless of the 25% rule. I didn't know that it was "when forced to" part, and a unit fell off table.

c) First turn, he picked up his hive tyrant, moved it, took his hand off it, then picked it back up, moved it back and then cast his psychic powers. However that last extra turn, when I was rushed (will get to later), I forgot to shoot with a unit that would have taken him off an objective, and he complained quite loudly that I wasn't able to go back and shoot.

So, to the crux of the matter, in which you point out; being rushed for time. To start with, yes, the game went almost 45 minutes past end which I find a little unacceptable. And then, as we're the only ones left playing, literally EVERY judge and some players were crowding the table and I felt massively rushed with them saying "hurry up" and so on. So much so, that (As mentioned above) I forgot to shoot with a unit, and I moved units out of position that I didn't need to, or didn't move a unit to where I needed to.

Had I been able to look at the table without feeling rushed, I could have easily won the game, but as it was, I ended up losing; Had the game ended when it should have (or had I been not rushed), I should have been 3rd Battle Points going into the final round and most likely would have faced Andrew...who would have kicked my teeth in, but I would have had a lot more fun playing against.

-jared

Jawaballs said...

Hi Jared, Thanks for the input. I really didn't have any hard details, only what I heard third party, so kept it intentionally vague so it could be placed really in any GT game five scenario. But it seems your scenario exemplifies why no turns should be started in the last 10 minutes of a round or whatever. An extra 45 minutes of time is unfair to every one in the room, but worse, did not good any way as you were forced into mistakes you would not have made. It definitely should not have gone after you resolved a winner!

But this all comes back to a well written set of rules. No the guys had not been really enforcing a rule, so they made a spot decision and let the game go on. I would have said no more turns myself...

And thanks for keeping names out of it!

Vaden said...

Hey does anyone have a copy of Ricky Johnson's list?

Jawaballs said...

I have it some place, email me and I will send you the info

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