Hey folks!
OK so seeing as how this is an entirely new game, I figured I would reach out to some of you who have no doubt played many more games than I for advice on my Lamenters list.
Here we go:
Librarian with Shield and Sword and Bike. 135
RAS x10 Fist and Plasma Pistol x3 260
RAS x10 Fist and Plasma Pistol x3 and drop pod 260 (Pod because my sternguard has one and I need them coming in NOT first turn.)
Scouts x5 Cloaks and Snipers 90 (Lamenters don't have a lot of scouts left but I need a cheap survivable troops to hold objectives)
Bike Squad x8 Plasma Gun x2, Fist 270
Bike Squad x8 Plasma Gun x2, Fist 270
Sternguard x9 Plasma Gun, Drop Pod, Fist 295
Priests:
Corbulo 105
Priest on Bike with Fist 110
Terminator squad x5 (eye candy for painting competition)
The main goal of this army is to compete at Feast of Blades for Armies on Parade and Best Painted in the Open. But also, I am looking for it to be competitive, to actually give me a chance to win games and not get rolled. Best Overall at FoB is something like 30 Battle points, and 60 soft scores. I want to give myself a chance to score as many BP as possible. Mostly though, my ego simply cannot take the beatings.
I chose two full bike squads because in my testing, bikers were awesome. The FNP means that they can shrug off power fists and las cannons! Only Vindi shots and Rail Guns, plus a few other hits can double up their T5. Plus for the creative point, I wanted to do up a biker priest and libby.
I am not married to the termies, and could probably use more troops. I am open to adding a Storm Raven!
What do you guys think?
Jawaballs
EDIT:
Quick changes to reflect fast input. Remember, first goal, look good. Second goal, win.
Librarian with JP and Plasma pistol. Drop powers for Divination 140
Honor Guard with JP x2 Melta Guns 205 (NMM Eye candy)
RAS x10. x2 Melta, plasma pistol, fist 250
RAS x10. x2 Plasma Gun, plasma pistol, fist, pod, 260
Scouts x5. Cloaks 90
Bikes x8. Plasma Gun x2, fist 270
Bikes x8. Plasma Gun x2, fist 270
Priests x2
Power Armor Priest on Bike with Fist 110
Corbulo 105
Sternguard x9, fist, heavy flamer, pod 295
five points remain
Showcase: Cadian Rogal Dorn Battle Tank
21 hours ago
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29 comments:
Hey Jawaballs,
first time commenter, though long time reader. See I played my first 6ed game against eldar last night and since it was not anything competitive I thought I might try something different, so I set for the biker approach, with a libby on a bike, 2x 6 bikes + attack bike, a pair of RAS and a small DC riding a stormraven. Here's what I learned:
- I totally lacked a sanguinary priest on a bike. The eldar shot 5 or 6 scatter lasers onto the squad to which the libby was attached and they were almost obliterated. Libby survived to die in my first turn thanks to a double 6 in psychic test.
- Stormraven (LasCann + MM) did a great job, destroying a falcon and immobilizing another one on its first turn on the table. I'd consider adding at least 1 stormraven else you will have no defense against flyers. If no flyers it still serves well as a gun platform, as i explained. Wouldn't use it as a transport, I've learned, since you need to change movement mode in order to disembark your units, and that makes it quite vulnerable against enemy melta.
Besides that, your list looks interesting and strange to me. I look forward to read how it does on the table!
Maybe put plasma guns on the drop pod raz squad since you can rapid fire after moving now (and wont be assaulting turn they arrive)?
I like the sternguard squad... Walking terminator will do fine, though the sheer volume of fire from necrons do hurt...
Would you ever in a missile dev squad? They are just so solid against other light transports and Nids MCs, which Im sure youll see more of.
Where is your Anti-Tank? IMHO you will still see vehicles on the field, and Fists are surprisingly easy to snipe out of squads now. (I have sniped 4 fists in 3 turns of shooting myself)
That aside I am not sold on bikes in 6th.. I have been trying them in BA and SM formats.
I did a breakdown of the SM Codex, and how alot of the changes effect Bikes in general.
http://eternal-legion.blogspot.com/2012/08/6th-edition-and-me-white-scars-are-dead.html
there are a lot of things I don't like but whatever.
1.) Take 2 Librarian on bikes, drop there base powers and take divination. Reroll to hit.
2.) Corbulo isn't worth it, take a normal priest on a bike.
3.) giving the priest a fist is just meaning he dies faster. As an IC challenges hurt him. If i gave him anything it would be a plasma pistol.
4.) Why put plasma pistols on assault marines? meltaguns are still better. 5 points cheaper better AP, same range, STR 8 still kills multi wound T4 models, for the cost of 1 attack in CC.
5.) Sternguard are mehh, 2 attacks or good shooting options. The plasma gun then prevents the charge. I think 2 heavy flamers will do you better in long run.
Nice input guys! Mathhammer, I had no delusions about the Sternguard ever making a charge. :) But you are right, plasma gone. And right again on the melta guns on asssault marines. I know the priest fist is not a great choice, but it was done more out of a modeling decision. He looks pretty cool! Sometimes I have to just accept not great decisions for the better look. Corbulo? I don't need him I guess. I wanted a priest with the sternguard but a normal one will do. I am using a forgeworld apothecary... again... the whole looks cool thing.
Dameon, I didn't get a chance to read your article yet, but in the games I have played, my bikes performed amazing. I agree, bikes suck for Space Marines, but the FNP makes them good. Alas, they are the core of this Lamenters list. I am going to model them up with a lot of bad luck.. wheels falling off, guys face planting and such. And I'm not so sure fists are all that easy to pick out. Positioned wisely, with FNP and LOS, they should survive. And with the new assault rules, they are all the tank killing I need vs any thing but Land Raiders. And those... /ignore. But yes a few more meltas could not hurt.
Donzo, I already dropped the termies. I replaced them with an Honor guard with jump packs that I am going to paint NMM. Even better eye candy! Also they will much better compliment my other fast moving troops. I also decided to switch my libby to jump pack. But will definitely look at Divination.
And am I wrong about Corbulo being awesome? The way I understood the rules, he gets in front, and makes his 3+ armor and 2+ FNP, then hands it off if failed on a 2+ with LOS. Sure STR 8 will vape him but those still get handed off on a 2+. Is that not worth 55 more points?
Corbulo In a mixed armor group
- decides on a LOS
- takes a 3+ armor save
- takes a 2+ FNP
Corbulo In a homogenous armor group
- Roll all wounds against the 3+ armor save
- decides on a LOS
- takes a 2+ FNP
The scenario you talking about using him for is as a tanking character up front. The thing is your also putting the FNP for the squad at risk. I would rather not do that with someone i want alive. I think I would rather rely on a solid unit then a one trick pony.
Personally I don't think it's bad, but it's betting against a streak of poor dice, a crafty opponent might snipe him with STR 8
It's not quite a one trick pony. That term denotes a list developed around taking advantage of a single quirk in the rules. Example from a few years back. Some douche cakes showed up at hard boys with BA lists with like 8 Land Raiders, both dudes had identical lists, expecting to be able to use DoA from inside them only to have that denied by the TO, and get slapped around the tables. THAT is a one trick pony. :)
More importantly though, you are saying that Corbulo has to LOS before failing a FNP roll?
yes, FnP is not part of a "armor save" so the FnP occurs after the armor save and look out sir.
Since the wound has to be suffered.
There is another quote elsewhere but can't look it up right now.
Here is how I understand it.
Corbs is in front. A round of rapid fire bolters are shot at the squad dealing 10 wounds.
At this point, I roll all 10 of the saves since Corbs has the same 3+ as the squad.
Now I have 5 unsaved wounds. But FNP is still a save, and since Corbs has a better one than the others, we are dealing with the "Mixed Saves" part of wound allocation. So he starts making FNP rolls, resulting in one unsaved wound.
Now an unsaved wound has been allocated to Corbulo, he can LOS it away on a 2+.
I am not trying to be abusive, this is just how I understand it since he has a 2+...
Clarify?
OH and if he is in front and a Melta shot is also slipped into the mix. He gets to FNP away the bolter shots on a 2+ then LOS out any failed attempts, and since he cannot FNP the melta shot, that simply gets taken away by a LOS. No?
I think Mathhammer is correct, once you take the FnP you have assigned the wound and passed the LoS step.
I am out working so don't have my rulebook but I know that's how we played it @ the Nova Prep tourney MVB's guys helped with..
Ahhh, I see under FNP on page 35 that it is NOT a saving throw, it is just a special roll to avoid the wound. That changes things, LOS comes before it.
even if your scenario was correct which it isn't
"Now I have 5 unsaved wounds. But FNP is still a save, and since Corbs has a better one than the others, we are dealing with the "Mixed Saves" part of wound allocation. So he starts making FNP rolls, resulting in one unsaved wound. "
1. FNP is not a save.
2. Under mixed saves you make the LOS BEFORE the save.
3. FNP is made by the model that suffered the wound so the model must have had the wound suffered, (so the wound must be subtracting a wound from that model).
4. If FNP was a save (which it isn't) then you would use the mixed save rules for all the wounds since one model would have a different save profile (3,-,-,2) verses (2,-,-,5) (armor,inv,cover,fnp)
So,
Corbs is in front. The squad fails 5 saves. He then has to choose. Use his 2+ FNP, or pass the wound to some one else using his 2+ LOS. Then the next guy makes a 4+ FNP.
If it is a double toughness shot, there is no FNP at all, and corbs simply passes it on with a 2+ LOS.
"even if your scenario was correct which it isn't"
Brent posted a nice article about communicating on BOLS. You might want to check it out. Maybe I am just a bit sensitive, but that line sounds awful snarky and unnecessary. Maybe because of lack of punctuation or smilies? :) I don't think you meant any thing nasty I and always respect what you write, but I go out of my way to try to always avoid typing comments that can be misinterpreted.
I mean, we are all colleagues here and should communicate in a formal way, at least until such time that we get piss drunk at some con and get to know each other. Then feel free to fire away! :)
The rest of your comment does a very good job at making your point though. My understanding was indeed wrong in that FNP only comes after a model has actually lost a wound, (Based on the fact that I thought FNP was a save, which it isn't) therefore it must come after LOS has been applied.
Bottom line here is that I mistakenly thought Corbulo would have a 2+ FNP then a 2+ LOS, making him indestructible vs any thing except rolling 1's... which honestly was the biggest hole in my logic, knowing my propensity for rolling 1's!
I think a normal priest embedded in the back of the squad would be better. Thanks Mathhammer!
"Maybe I am just a bit sensitive, but that line sounds awful snarky and unnecessary. "
Actually at work, before lunch. so I'm pretty direct at work and it carries over.
Wasn't being snark. I placed that phrase there so if someone read my post they would never guess i was agreeing with someone, in case a post above got changed or removed, or my post ends up out of sequence (which it does)
Hey Jawa,
I'm a little late to the party but I wanted to toss my input in for what its worth.
I've played a few games of 6th, now, with Power Fists on my Sarges, and the results have been lack-luster.
My suggestion would be to take Meltabombs as an upgrade on anyone that has the option, since they can be used against Monstrous Creatures, as well as vehicles- an amazing upgrade for a mere 5 points.
Challenges are really going to eat a model equipped with a Power Fist that can't shrug off (last) through an opponent's swings'. I would suggest dropping PFs in favor of Axes if you want something to dent AP2 (10 points cheaper, Str +1, AP2), or a power weapon that swings at initiative. At the very least, a Fist or Axe in each bike squad may not be a bad idea because of their superior toughness value, but I would hesitate allocating those weapons elsewhere.
My question for you: Why Sternguard rather than Death Company? You mentioned the desire to assault and shoot, which DC will give you in spades. Relentless allows you to take bolters; move, fire, shoot. Rage gives each model +2 attacks on the charge. Built-in FNP. Stick Corbs with them for the 2+/2+ hijinks- He really will make back his points in damage absorption.
Another question I have is why drop an Assault Squad on foot instead of a Tac Squad? The Tac Squad will at least have the ability to fire bolters. Take a Plasma Gun, and a combi-plasma for the Sarge, your choice for the Heavy Weapon (Plasma Cannons aren't so bad anymore, but no snap fire). That alternative would save you some points, and provide a really nice mid-field unit.
One more suggestion I'd like to make is considering a unit of Sanguinary Guard in lieu of an Honor Guard. Their 2+ armor and mobility make them worth considering, now.
An alternate list, and a slight spin on a list a friend suggested:
HQ
Tycho,
Libby on Bike
Elite
Priest on Bike, Melta Bombs, PW
Corbulo
Troops
9 man Assault Squad, 1 Sgt; Melta Gun x2, Power Weapon, Melta Bomb
4 man Scout Squad, 1 Sgt; Sniper Rifles, Melta Bomb, Camo Cloaks
4 man Scout Squad, 1 Sgt; Sniper Rifles, Melta Bomb, Camo Cloaks
7 Death Company, 1 Power Weapon, 7 Bolters, Drop Pod
7 Bikes, 1 Sgt, 2x Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs
7 Bikes, 1 Sgt, 2x Plasma Gun, Power Weapon, Melta Bombs
4 Man Devastator Squad, 1 Sgt, 4x Multi Meltas, Melta Bomb, Drop Pod
4 Man Devastator Squad, 1 Sgt, 4x Multi Meltas, Melta Bomb, Drop Pod
This list should give you approximately 10 points to play with (I used Battlescribe, and have not had the opportunity to verify point values).
The idea behind above list is to drop both Dev squads as you push your bikes up, giving your opponent a lot to deal with. Subsequent turn(s), your DC star drops with Corbs and Tycho in for the ride. They can split off as needed to cause the most damage to your opponent's forces.
This list is short on scoring troops, but scout units can be edged up (or held back) to claim objectives as needed.
Anyways, food for thought. I can't wait to see your finished army. Good luck!
Interesting input. I went with the Sternguard for the special ammo. I went with assault squad in a pod over a Tac because in my experience in the past, the assault squad was cheaper after the pod, and had more weapon options. The Tactical sgt has different options than the assault. Without looking it was something like the RAS getting 2 melta guns and a melta pistol vs the TAC getting a melta gun, combi melta and multi melta.
Gotchya. Another idea for your Sternguard would be to load up on combi-plasma (keep the heavy flamer). Each combi weapon is only 5 points, and you retain the special bolter ammo in addition to having one killer round of rapid-fire plasma shots.
You should play-test those fists, though. Opponents would purposefully seek out my Sarges to challenge and wipe 'em out- it was very annoying.
I agree with Gonewild that loading up your Sternguard squad up with combi-weapons is the way and the light. I personally am modeling 3 combi-plasma (for high toughness multi-wound creatures), 2 combi-flamers (for the masses of small little critters that you run into on occasion), and 5 combi-meltas (for when you find that nut you just have to crack). One of the things that I find that are not mentioned is that if you fire off the flamer or melta bits is that they are assault weapons, which means that you can still charge in the same round that you shoot in. Having the other models that do not have assault weapons using their bolt pistols can really make the unit more flexible all around.
In closing, any Space Marine type army is made to be tactically flexable and in my opinion this is one of the most flexable ways to make this unit.
Additionally, putting a locator beacon in your Scout squad will allow you to place your Drop Pods more accurately in the first turn. Turn one with your Sterngaurd rapid firing in the face of your enemies or your Death Company posting in an area that allows them to assault in the next turn. Choices, choices.....
Well I love the concept of blood rodeo so its awesome to see lementors. Also since it is so hard to paint yellow you will probably get brownie points for going that route.
Divination=extreme win hands down
Well in the changes are honor guard really all that? They are so expensive and never seem to work from what I have seen. Yet the NMM will win best painted at any rate so a good pick for some diversity if the goal is best painted/shot at overall.
bikes=win, plasma guns are a must when vehicles are in a minority over all the competitive gaming I have seen so far. Also termies are a big threat by trumping your assault army in combat so plasma to take them down sounds good.
assault squads seem good, no reason to not have some melta when you do see that land raider in front of you.
now the terminators seem to be left behind in such a fast army. I would say why not add in that storm raven since flyers are awesome these days if you are up to it. Also Lamentors get white death company which seems like an awesome opportunity to get out of the constant yellow (NMM with the honor guard and straight regular yellow) with some cool white, another tough color to paint, death company who got a lot more competitive this edition.
Really I would love to see some White death company in a jawaballs original army. IT would also be very competitive if you could fit it it. GL!
I have a limited experience in 6th due to little number of games I played so far, but I have to completely agree on equipping sergeants with Power Fists or Thunder Hammers: not worth it.
This, of course, if you don't have someone running together with the group capable of accepting challenges for the sergeant. But I think this might turn into a big points investment to do so.
I had an opposite idea of using sergeant not as someone killing opponents in the challenge but rather denying them an easy kill by giving model a storm shield.
It worked pretty well with BA Vanguard vets against multiple ork nobs with power fists, but its not the best example of how it might be used.
For example -- take a 10 man group of marines, accompanied by a sanguinary priest. Sergeant has a storm shield, accepting challenges, while priest wreck some quality chaos with a WS5 power first / power weapon.
whens the next war tv broadcast we miss u guys :( lol
I'm wondering if there is a way to get another Sternguard into the Pod to bring them to 10 and have 2 combat squads pop out of it to nuke 2 targets on turn 1?
The only thing is they won't have room for a Priest but with Corbulo being dropped/turned into a regular SP (much as I like Corby) you free up loads of points for Combi-Weapons which would give you great flexibility on what to arm the Sterns with: 1 set of 5 could be given C-Melta and the other either left alone or C-Plasma to mangle infantry.
It would also potentially give you 2 more anti-tank units and would allow you nuke vehicles that would pose a serious threat to your guys.
I'm wondering if there is a way to get another Sternguard into the Pod to bring them to 10 and have 2 combat squads pop out of it to nuke 2 targets on turn 1?
The only thing is they won't have room for a Priest but with Corbulo being dropped/turned into a regular SP (much as I like Corby) you free up loads of points for Combi-Weapons which would give you great flexibility on what to arm the Sterns with: 1 set of 5 could be given C-Melta and the other either left alone or C-Plasma to mangle infantry.
It would also potentially give you 2 more anti-tank units and would allow you nuke vehicles that would pose a serious threat to your guys.
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