Hey folks, I recently got an email from a reader asking about a list:
Hey,
I'm relatively new to Warhammer 40K and right from the beginning I was drawn to the Blood Angels. I was actually wondering if you might be able to give me some pointers on my list.
2000 pts. list
HQ
Captain - Combi Melta - 110 pts.
Troops
(5) Assault Squad – Meltagun - 110 pts.
Razorback - TLLC, EA - 70 pts.
(5) Assault Squad – Meltagun - 110 pts.
Razorback - TLLC, EA - 70 pts.
(5) Assault Squad – Meltagun - 110 pts.
Razorback - TLLC, EA - 70 pts.
(5) Assault Squad – Meltagun - 110 pts.
Razorback - TLLC, EA - 70 pts.
(5) Assault Squad – Meltagun - 110 pts.
Razorback - TLLC, EA - 70 pts.
Fast Attack
Baal Predator - TLAS, EA, HKM - 140 pts.
Baal Predator - TLAS, EA, HKM - 140 pts.
Baal Predator - TLAS, EA, HKM - 140 pts.
Heavy Support
Vindicator - Siege Shield, EA - 170 pts.
Vindicator - Siege Shield, EA -170 pts.
Vindicator - Siege Shield, EA -170 pts.
Total – 1940 pts.
My response? My first reaction was to tell him to simply swap out the captain for a Librarian and go with it. There is NO reason, other than fluff, to play a BA Captain. Not when you can get a Librarian for the same price who is incredibly more effective. The rest of his list is not bad. Razorspam is still effective. Baal Predators can be very effective, though I suggest he changes out the HK missiles and give them heavy bolters to help do their jobs and mow down infantry.
But the glaring problem? The Vindicators. Especially his kitted out at 170 points a piece.
The Vindicator, probably more than any other 40k unit, is suffering from 4th ed over rating. Not that this reader would know, I think he is newer to the game and does not really know about the Vindicator of old, but the Vindicator is just not that scary.
In 4th Ed the vindicator was one of the most feared tanks in the game. Cover saves were hard to come by and AP 2 was not as readily available. (Nowadays it is not uncommon to see over 20 plasma guns in a guard army.) But most important, was the Ordinance Damage Chart. In 4th Edition there were three damage tables. Glancing Hits, Penetrating Hits, and Ordinance. Vindicators rolled on the ordinance chart which pretty much meant that a hit was a kill. But not only that, a 6 on the ordinance chart was a fantastic explosion that not only obliterated the transport you were shooting at, but all of the troops inside.
Holy Crap! They were truly feared. Some of the strongest Marine lists, including the one played by Danny Internets, had three of them. The Vindicator made people pee their pants.
Fast Forward to the new BA Codex and 5th Ed. Among the top five whining complaints about the book was FAST VINDICATORS! Matt Ward must be insane right? But who cares about fast vindicators now? The consolidation of the damage charts into one single chart with modifiers effectively neutered the feared Vindicator. Gone was the threat of exploding entire squads at a time while they hid in their rhino. Easy to get cover saves finished them off. The first time I dropped a vindicator pie plate on a squad of orks I figured it out. I must have gotten 19 orks under that circle, but only about 4 died. The guy had wrapped the rest around a low rising crater, effectively obscuring, at least partially, 50% of the bases.
Welcome to 5th Edition, and So long Vindicator! But I still see it popping up here and there.
If you are going to play one, only Blood Angels should because of it's movement. But why bother? They are more expensive. They don't come with a Storm Bolter. (I don't believe they do, I don't remember off hand and don't have my codex here.) So they are a single weapon destroyed away from becoming an expensive battering ram.
Siege Shield? Waste of points. If you are playing a BAV, you should be taking advantage of it's strength, fast movement. So that thing should never be moving less than 12". I am speaking in generalities here and there will always be circumstances that contradict what I am saying, but for the most part here is how a vindicator breaks down in combat. On Turn One you move it 12" and hopefully get into range. (Siege Shield only works if you move up to 6") Maybe you get a turn one shot. Then you should be in range of something, and if you moved it right, should be in range the rest of the game. This means that you don't really need to move more than a few inches again, so your siege shield is useful right?
Not really. It is worth the risk to not spend the points. Odds are that if you DO get immobilized, you are still going to be in range of something for the rest of the game after that first movement. But that brings me back to the 12" thing. If you are in range to shoot your vindi gun, you are probably in range to get assaulted by something nasty. You really should be moving that thing at least 7" to force your opponent to hit on a 6 in the assault. (No shield) So if you spend the points on the shield, you will likely only get a chance to use it once but should probably not use it at all. (Again, there are always circumstances that will defy this, I am speaking generally.)
Extra armor is a good investment. I always support taking it.
But getting back to Vindicator range, it's short range necessitates exposing it to melta fire. You have to play them aggressively, this means that they die quick. Plus, getting back to their over rated fear factor, they really die quick because they previously made people pee their pants. That fear lingers. This is not necessarily a bad thing, as this can help force battlefield control. Just don't count on your vindicator getting off more than one or two shots.
Alternative?
The Auto/Las pred of course. You don't need extra armor because you probably won't move them far from where you deployed them. Being able to move if stunned really matters little in this case. But the advantage to these is the four high strength shots. The vindicator gives you one single shot, IF you manage to not scatter the hole off the top of the tank. The Predator is a transport killer, is effective at least at silencing other predators, and can even take down land raiders. I played a 7 land raider redeemer list at Hardboys and proceeded to blast him off the table with my predators.
With Vindicator scatter, I imagine the average number of models you are going to get under the pie plate is around 4 when shooting at a well placed 10 man squad. (Again, generalities, this is not based on proof, just experience.) Give them cover saves and the number of dead is cut in half. Cover saves apply to auto/las preds too, but the average of shots you can place on a well placed 10 man squad of marines? 4. The predator can be just as effective as the Vindi at anti troop.
Of course we only ever hear about those big blasts that kill 10 man squads of marines in a single shot. The truth is, this just does not happen much.
|When I play against them, I ignore them. Sure I have to play smart, but I let them hang until I feel like dealing with them. If I go up against an opponent who has spent 25% of his points on three vindicators in a tournament, I would just smile.
My final advice for this list? Take auto/las preds instead, use all the extra points to turn you Captain into Mephiston. Drop the HK missiles, and give a couple power weapons to squads. Try to squeeze in a priest. Have fun! :)
Jawaballs