Hey guys!
So there was a pretty good discussion the other day about Blood Angels assault marines as allies and I wanted to do a continuation of that thread for review.
First of all, I am sure there are better points use for allies but here is what I came up with:
This is a copy/paste from my comment section. I am replying to a question about bikers to begin.
The important part here is where I break down points costs and why BA RAS are a great troops choice in 6th Ed, especially as allies.
I did a lot of play testing a bike squad with priest. The result was underwhelming all the time. The squad is hugely expensive, and once combat is in place, it is still only one attack per model. If they could all take plasma guns, then yah bikes, but you only get two per squad plus SGT upgrades. In the end it is a very expensive pair of plasma guns that at best will tie up an enemy assault squad for a bit, provided that the enemy unit is not a dedicated assault unit.
Here is a little comparison to show the strength of BA assault squads. I have created two units as identical as possible including 10 men and an attached IC.
Vanilla:
x10 marines
plasma pistol
flamer
power fist
chaplain with JP
Fearless
reroll hits on charge
non scoring
355 points
Blood Angels:
x10 marines
MELTA GUN (not an option for vanilla)
flamer
fist
Sanguinary Priest with JP and Power Maul(to keep it even)
FEEL NO PAIN
Furious Charge
possibly fearless
reroll ALL hits with librarian buff
scoring
320
35 less points and way more effective!
:)
Some one had commented comparing vanilla assault marines with BA. So I created two units on army builder creating the same unit as close as possible, with an attached IC. I used a chaplain and a priest since they were probably the closest in nature. You can immediately see the goodness of the BA assault marine!
Some of the things that jump out at me are the fact that a BA RAS can have two specials, with the options being Melta, Flamer or Plasma guns while the Vanilla only gets one, and a plasma pistol (I think it was on the sgt?), and no Melta or Plasma gun option.
So the point here is that you take this blood angels squad I have above, add another, and a Librarian with JP and you have a brutal group of nasties for 765 points. This is the perfect allied compliment to a Space Marine army who has cheap fire power like Thunder Fires and interesting options like useful Captains or named characters and different Libby powers. (The Blood Angels captain is a joke). You can also throw in a Storm Raven which is one of the best flyers still.
In summary, if you are playing Marines, and want some assault goodness, don't bother with the Marine codex, play Blood Angels. 1200 points of the best that the Marine codex has to offer supported by 800 points of the best the Bloods have to offer enhances both. And THAT is the point of allies folks!
Jawaballs
Review: Jucoci Backpack
1 day ago
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6 comments:
Jawa, I don't think comparing a BA Priest to a Vanilla Chaplain is fair, or relative, for that matter.
Looking at each of unit without the addition of an IC and comparing the pros'/cons'(echoing some of the bullet points you made in your post):
Vanilla Assault Squad:
-Not a troop choice (takes a fast attack slot)
-Troop special weapons relegated to flamers and plasma pistols (and no one should take plasma pistols.
-Flamers cost 10 points
-Sgt may only choose close combat weapon options
-Sgts may take melta bombs for 5 points.
-Did I mention not a troop choice?
-Does not benefit from Descent of Angels
-ATSKNF
-Combat Tactics (love this special rule)
-Combat Squads
----
Blood Angel Assault Squad:
-Troop choice
-Troops may take flamer, melta gun, plasma gun, hand flamer, infernus pistol, plasma pistol as optional weapons (with the three viable choices being flamer, melta, plasma gun).
-Flamer weapons cost 5 points
-Sgts may choose from close combat weapon upgrades, as well as, pistol upgrades (flamer pistols, and infernus pistols viable options.)
-Sgts may take melta bombs for 5 points.
-ATSKNF
-Descent of Angels
-17% chance to roll Red Thirst (in 6th, I actually view Red Thirst as a con.)
-Removing jump packs provides a 35 point reduction on the cost of a dedicated transport (a cheap way for vanilla marines to obtain Land Raiders that don't take up a heavy slot)
In conclusion both units' base cost are the same before adding special weapons, gear, and any dedicated transport(s). I think that BA assault marines are superior because they are a troop, don't take up a fast attack slot, and have more options they can take- you don't have to play them solely as an assault unit. The unit is highly mobile and can counter massed troops outfitted with flamers, counter tanks and bastions, or be used for late game objection grabs' (held in reserve combined with DoA).
The BA assault squad is more versatile, has more options to choose from, and can adequately fill multiple roles that the vanilla assault squad cannot.
To amend my statement about fearless,'I would prefer ATSKNF over the Fearless special rule in 6th edition.' The benefits of ATSKNF is just too powerful to lose. When my Blood Angels roll a one and contract the Red Thirst, I cry a little inside.
Interesting take,I've noticed that your take on the best use of allies is as a 'role filler'. While I do agree it is a good use for them, I disagree that it is the best way to use allies. I do however, agree that if a codex marine is too use his assault marines as a dedicated assault unit, that yes, in a purely mathematical sense: the blood angel assault marine unit is far superior! But, assualt marines in a codex marine army and a blood angel army, by nature and definition, fill very different roles. Or at least the way I play them they do ;). When I run my codex marines assault unit for my Dark Angels, I use them as a harrying unit: A ten or 5 man unit that bounces around my armies flanks jumping at targets of opportunity. On the other hand, when playing my Blood Angels, I use those assault marines more aggressively, using them to clear an objective from the enemies grasp and claiming it or freeing it up so a 'stationary unit' like tac marines can claim and hold it. So basically, I like your article but I don't think the comparison is so black and white.
Gonewild, I hear what you are sayig, but the priest is a must take for the BA squad to make them truly sweet. I needed to add something to the Vanilla squad to make it as close a comparison as possible. I agree you can't compare the chaplain to the priest, but this is as good as we can get!
Mistermike, but why would you ever use a codex marines assault squad when the BA one is better and cheaper! :) It can still play the role you give it to harrass the flanks, but with more finesse. :)
good point indeed, well perhaps an individual is would not utilize them because it does not fit with the narrative he or she has created for there game? But I was trying to indicate that attaching a priest is a 'must' if you want to build an aggressive assault marine unit. If you are not going for an aggressive unit, then no attached IC's are needed. Therefore, the need to take an allied unit of Blood Angels Marines is not required. But, I digress, the taking of allies is in fact a way of building a narrative: what could be more iconic than brother chapters standing shoulder to shoulder against the xenos menace?
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