I'm back! and Send them BACK!

I was away for a while visiting family.  But I returned to see a flood of emails and comments about Finecast.  Check this:

I have three words for you all.  SEND THEM BACK.  Last week I posted an article praising GW for getting rid of metal models and the sentiment was very supportive.  Just about all who commented agreed that the ease is using Resin vs Metal is worth the price.  But definitely not if this is the quality we can expect. Look at the air bubbles on the crux on top of the banner. The guy who shared this pic did not include a pic of the other side of the pack, which he says has a ventilator that is so bad from air bubbles that he has to cover it up.  

This is NOT acceptable.  

GW must not be allowed to raise prices while at the same time providing inferior models.  A certain amount of cleaning and trimming can be accepted, but we should not have to greenstuff air bubbles or cover over mars in the models surface with other bits.  I have heard praise and horror stories about these models. 


If we sit complacently with these models, they will have no motivation to improve what they are doing. We will allow them to lower the bar.  We cannot let that happen.  Price increases should at the very least coincide with a product that is the same quality as what came before.  

I suspect GW is releasing this first wave of Finecast having not fine tuned the process.  Who knows. Maybe they are simply using the same molds that they used for pewter, and they don't work for resin.  Maybe they need to recast every model.  Maybe they ran a huge production run of resin, realized that it is crap, but are selling it any way hoping we won't care.  

Car companies do it.  (as do many others) They will realize that a product has a problem and should not go into production, but weigh the immediate loss from stopping the production vs the risk of profit loss due to recall.  If the percentages work as an acceptable risk, they go with it and hope they don't lose then fix the problem for later runs, or not.  I suspect GW pulled one of these.  

So don't let them snow you over that air bubbles in your models are now acceptable.  Don't let them put out a  Catalog article, (white dwarf) demonstrating how to green stuff your models and accept that as the new norm.  

I have never encountered a Forgeworld model so marred by bubble imperfections.  But if i did, I would return it! They have come flimsy and bent, crooked and unusable, but never bubbly. And they always replaced the parts in question immediately.  After all, it is better to do and ask forgiveness than to ask and be told no. The same applies to this business. Forgeworld sometimes knows they ship inferior product. Thats why they replace them so readily. Do you think that they end up replacing every low quality product they ship?  No.  Most guys probably just greenstuff any bubbles and live with any defects because of the time it takes to get a FW order. I once replaced half a squad of Krieg arms and guns with Cadian because the ones that arrived were unusable, but it took 2 months to get them.  I should not have done that. Neither should you.

The cost of replacing models only to those who complain is worth it for the company. You business majors can enlighten us with what this practice is called.  

We need to make it not worth it.  We need to force action by returning each and every model that arrives like this Crowe.  

I love the switch to resin. I love the cancellation of metal. I can deal with the price increase. But I will never be satisfied with air bubbles in my models.  GW is banking that enough of you WILL be satisfied to not have to improve their product.  Don't let them get away with it. 



DimmyK said...

I love the fact that on the GW website when u click on a fine cast model, it says "Due to high demand, each citadel finecast product is limited to three per customer"

I'm not sure where they got the 'high demand' bit from...

eriochrome said...

Great post. Good to see players who still really support the game get up in arms. Seems like a lot of the comments about the finecast come from people like me who have been pushed away from GW already due to the price increases or other factors.

Jawaballs said...

The "high demand" comes from the three months of backordering they did when they stopped making metal models months before announcing resin. It is not demand for resin, it is filling orders for metal GK blisters that they sold online weeks ago.

The Inner Geek said...

I agree that it's less of high demand and more of a low supply.

I personally see no advantage of resin over metal. Yes it cuts easier, but this resin is so soft it cuts like low density rubber. I was afraid it would be too brittle, but it's quite the opposite.

GW do need to get this process under control though.

As a side note, I picked up two minis and they are actually in pretty good shape. They are also less common Fantasy Battle sculpts. I wonder if that makes a difference? Review is on my blog.

Jawaballs said...

Inner Geek add a link to your blog in the comments so people can easily see. I suspect there is going to be a huge difference in quality. Some perfect, some terrible.

Feuermann said...

I hate new "resin" it looks lik th old plastic one that GW uses 10 yars ago
I'm searching for metal incubi and make my own resin versions or use the elite witches instead of incubi.

Jawaballs said...

Feuermann, you have hit on the big pink elephant in the room. A lot of guys have the means to make perfect copies of GW models. Why should they buy inferior ones?

Feuermann said...

And another example, I made my own Archon http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/577/cimg1160k.jpg/
Ultra-cheap using a cabalite warrior, witch agonizer and skulls from my dark eldar raider. And now I'm searching for resin distribuitors in Seville(spain)

Dalinair said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Dalinair said...

I got the tyrant, its not that bad actually, think I only noticed 1 tiny bubble on the whole thing which I was able to cover up with glue and wont show when its painted but yeah its a definite shame at the quality of some of these casts. I'll have to take a pic and let the internet cast its expert eyes over it to see any I might have missed after reading this!

The Inner Geek said...

Here is the link mentioned above. Didn't know if linking was kosher, thanks Jawaballs.

Losferwords said...

If you look very closely at the resin models on the GW page, you can see that a lot of the detail, has in fact, been left out. Things like the teeth and metal studs are not anywhere near the quality of the metal models. I couldn't understand why everyone was so excited that metal was going away. You're paying more money for much less quality with the resins.

Jawaballs said...

Geek, so long as it furthers the discussion, link away!

Losferwords, interesting. I will have to take a look. I cant imagine how going resin would produce less detailed models than metal or plastic though. For me, the happiness of getting rid of Metal comes from not having to deal with chipping paint.

Irondog said...

But if the resin is as flexible as people are saying, you will still have chipping paint.

Pictures this: You knock over a metal model and a bit of the paint chips off. The model doesn't break because it's made of metal and pinned.

Now knock over the new 'flexi-resin, finecash' model. The model won't break, but the paint will likely chip anyway because the sword/antenna/whatever flexed to absorb the shock.

The resin is flexible, your paint job isn't.

NockerGeek said...

Maybe I'm just missing it, but I'm not seeing the air bubbles in the banner topper there. I see the eyeholes of the skull in the crux, but no bubbles otherwise. Are they on the arms of the crux?

HurricaneGirl said...

I totally agree with sending them back. I've long been an un-fan of ForgeWorld for all the bubbles and bendy crap they send out and if GW is going to do this as the norm I vote a big HELL NO. I will send every model I get that isn't worth the price that I'm paying for it. Up your price, GW, then UP YOUR QUALITY!

ServvsUmbrarum said...

As a new player I am glad I've kept an ear to the ground...or blog...whatever. My club is going to our LGS today to look at some of these and I'm going to be watching careful to see that no one gets screwed over. Thank you all, as if I hadn't read this probably would have just assumed the bubbles were 'part of the hobby'.

"The Initiate"

Darth Yoda said...

GW claims a simple dab of super glue will fill up any bubbles in their models. I don't know how well it works myself, since I have yet to acquire a Finecast model for myself, but I imagine it wouldn't be much harder than that. And since you're using super glue to put the thing together in the first place, I don't think it'd be a huge timesink like getting out the Green Stuff would.

As far as I see it, GW has had resin models available for sale to the general public for all of four days so far. There are bound to be imperfections this early on. Over time, the kinks will be worked out and they will continue to produce amazing quality miniatures.

Does this mean we should be sending them back until they do get it perfect? I don't think so, personally. I doubt they can fine-tune whatever equipment they use to such a degree that every model will be flawless every time; especially not when you consider how many of them they have to mass-produce to keep us even partially mollified.
Remember: GW is the biggest miniature company out there right now. You can't mass produce at the scale that they do and not have imperfections. The reason other resin-based companies can create products without very many (if any) imperfections is that they're much smaller scale. GW can't afford to oversee every step of the process like some other companies can. So sending back the models, demanding they get it perfect is asking too much, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, slight imperfections like bubbles are out of their control at this point. If they sent me a model with, say, its arm missing or something, then yeah, I'd demand better service than that. But bubbles? Especially ones that, in all likelihood, can simply be filled with glue? I'll let that slide for now.

tim said...

Well, two things. I think that GW is not raising prices because of the resin release, but because of their standard June price hike. Also, I heard it takes a couple production runs of the mold to get it without bubbles.

my blog: www.lousteinberg.com/tim

Jason said...

I managed to fix most of the bubbles in my crowe and remade the vents with GS cause my store wouldnt let me send him back but it still looks like he got shot up because of the holes in his cape where the resin was so thin

Jason said...

what i dislike the most is that crowes sword is soft and kinda limp, my librarian that i got today his staff is soft and bent weirdly, luckily Im gonna put a nemesis force weapon on him

MrFiremagnet said...

Thank you for saving my money, Jawa.
I'd better convert my own HQ rather then buy something like this bubbly crap.

oni said...

I have seen FAILcast models that are absolutely perfect and these one are hypnotically beautiful. However, for every one perfect model that has mesmerized me I've seen half a dozen that have shocked and horrified me. FAILcast is just that... FAIL!

I will purchase FAILcast. Why? Because there are models I desire that I didn't purchase before the switch. However, I will return every model that is imperfect and I will do this repeatedly until I have an acceptable product. If in a GW Hobby Center, I WILL open the package before I pay, ensuring the product is acceptable.

Eyno said...

I guess, me just got lucky with not having bubbles on mine finecasts. Reading all those complains about poor quality of new GW resin makes me scared to purchase next one. This is sad, I really like the weight and the sharpness of detail on finecasts.

Dugatron said...

I must say, I disagree with Darth Yoda.
If you're shelling out approximately $20 for a model (more if you're Aussie) should you not expect a model without glaring imperfections? I dislike the metal models as much as the next bloke but at least they didn't have a 50% chance to be horribly disfigured.

Finecast seems too much like a lucky dip to me. I've decided to go the Ron Saikowski route and convert all of my HQ models from now on.

Slider Da Feral said...

The tag line for the adverts was "What will be your first Citadel Finecast model?" Having an opportunity to take a look through the clamshell at some models broken out and available at my FLGS, I went with Commander Dante and the termie libby.

So I get them home and open up the clamshells. First up, Dante. Flash everywhere. I figure, ok, this is not insurmountable. Only three air bubbles on the model: two pinhead sized ones on the breech of the pistol and the right elbow, and a slight gouge along the edge of the wings of the axehead. I figure ok, I got green stuff already for earlier conversions, I can handle this. No slottabase in the package itself; a little irksome, but I've got spares to use.

Then came the libby. I saw the body through the clamshell and it looked GREAT. You really had to be looking for air bubbles to find any on the first sprue. Then we come to the staff sprue.

SWEET EMPEROR IN A SMOKING BIRCH-BARK CANOE, WHY DID GW LET THIS LEAVE THE FACTORY? Air bubbles everywhere, including the cincher: the power cables leading to the head of the staff as well as one wing on the eagle looked like it had been sheared off with a blowtorch, and the other half was nowhere in the package.

Good thing I saved the receipt.

I was able to answer the question posed in the adverts. What I will tell you all, Jawaballs Nation, is that those two will be my final Failcast Models until GW figures out and fixes its quality control problem.

What do we want? Quality control!
When do we want it? YESTERDAY!

Drathmere said...

My vanguard were so terrible I had to cut off the leather weapon straps on two the models. There was also detail simply missing. Little power hoses on the legs were half cast on several of the models. On the other hand, my raptors are simply beautiful. The raptor box was perfect.

I like ONI's idea of opening each box in the store and returning it if it sucks, but that will get old really quickly. Some of these casts look worse than my amateur pours.

Jawaballs said...

If models are terribly pockmarked with bubbles, or worse, then they should be returned. They are defective. We should not have to pay for defective product that requires repair just to use it.

If I bought a pair of paints, and when I opened it up, it was full of holes, I would certainly not be ok with simply sewing up the holes and treating the pants as if they were perfect. I would return them.

I don't know what to say about your store not allowing you to return the item. But I know what I would do. There are just too many online competitors. Sure it is not the stores fault your model was crap, but they should be the first voice shouting at the distributors.

BrotherYorei said...

either you need a new camera or the "bubble" marks are what you are calling what looks like the eyes of the skull.

Jawaballs said...

The bubbles are actually on the side extensions of the cross, at the bottoms of the extensions. They look like little white dots. While the example in this picture may seem minor, I'm sure some of you have many more drastic examples. Where do we draw the line? Drathmere can you send me a picture of your Vanguard?

NockerGeek said...

A photo of a Finecast mini with more obvious flaws (and they're definitely out there) would make a much stronger case than one where the flaws appear as a couple of tiny white spots on a small detail on an otherwise pristine-looking model.

That's not to say that there aren't miscast/bubbled Finecast models out there. GW absolutely should be held accountable for any product that shouldn't have passed quality control, and if anyone buys a mini that's too damaged/malformed to use, they absolutely should contact GW and demand a refund and/or a replacement. I don't know if there's a hard and fast line to draw the quality threshold at, though. It's going to vary on a case by case basis. For instance, a couple of small bubbles on the back or bottom of an Ethereal's robes are no big deal. The same small bubbles on his face, though - and I saw one with just that problem this weekend - is an entirely different matter, and I wouldn't buy one with that defect.

I think demanding 100% perfect casts is unreasonable - we didn't get them with metal, so we're not going to get them with the Finecast resin either. On the other hand, if the flaws are obscuring or destroying the quality promised for the Finecast line, then GW needs to be presented with those issues. Hopefully, as they get the wrinkles in their production line ironed out, the miscasts and bubbles will be reduced to a minimum and better QC will be practiced. This first shipment feels rather rushed, but I'd still say that good models outnumber bad ones.

Timothy said...

Business Major here.

The problem is that the internet has a concentrating effect. When someone gets a bad finecast mini, they are often incensed that they just paid more money for a crappy product. They take a photo and post it on the internet. The person who bought a good miniature is far more likely to think that this is the usual, and they don't take a picture and put it on the internet.

So there would be a lot more negative feedback than positive no matter what. It all has to do with the failure RATE. Every product has failures (ever bought a box of firewarriors?), but what proportion of the entire line is failures is what matters.

If the failure rate of finecast miniatures is very high, then GW has screwed up. If the failure rate is about normal, then it has not screwed up. The problem is that no one has the ability to aggregate all the pass/fail data while eliminating the reporting bias.

Jawaballs said...

I have more pics incoming. This post produced a fervor and guys want to show what they got. So every one, email me your pics, good or bad. Lets try to create a consensus! However, I think that bubbles, however small or wherever they are, should not be accepted. GW should at least be able to reach the level of quality of Forgeworld.

I think they are simply knowingly dumping their poor quality first runs, hoping we don't complain.

And Timothy, you make a good point. We need a larger sample space.

tim said...

A store called Miniwargaming looked at all of the 100 blisters they got for their first finecast shipment, and they only saw two blisters with any real problems that are bad enough to not sell them, and even then they said that a little greenstuff would fix it. Personally, for the first ever release of a new product, using new materials, one out of fifty aren't that bad of odds.

Student Teacher said...

Bought a Finecast Ork Warboss with attack squig the other day. Got it home and found that the bosspole was broken off at the point where it attaches to the backpack.

I called GW and they are shipping me out a new one. No questions asked.

Grajo said...

Very good post, man.

Yesterday, I bought three finecast products, the chaplain with jump pack, the eldar autarch and a box of eldar dark reapers.

When I was looking at them they looked perfectly normal, but then, I opened the boxes and see the following:

.- The chaplain is cut from right behind the foot that takes contact with the base so the stone and de iron ball are totally missing, and the hand is almost tore off as if someone pulled too hard from the crozius (apart from the totally miscasted crozius).

.- The Autach is almost OK, except for the wings, which feathers almost dissappeared of one side of it.

.- And the reapers have such amount of resin in the feet that can´t be filed and cut without damage the legs.

So this afternoon of tomorrow morning I´m going to go to the GW store and send the minis back... ALL the minis I bought, and I probably will wait until the finecast proccesses are perfected.

P.S.: Sorry about my bad english, I´m a spanish gamer/blogger and it´s not my mother language.

Jawaballs said...

Please send pics Grajo! Tim I will have to check MWG for the article.

Feuermann said...

I found this one, melted whith the sunlight!!!!

yep, it's an epic fail mini

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