I have decided to focus on a list that I feel I can get painted in time for the weekend. As such, I will not be bringing the most optimized list, rather, I will simply be bringing something fun to play yet competitive.
In that list I have scouts! Two squads of them. I've always liked scout models. Both the close combat and sniper ones. I have them here, so figured it would be the perfect time to get them on the table.
In my CC scout squad I am playing a Power Fist, Combi melta and 4 cc scouts.
Here are some pics of the cc scouts!
I started these differently than my assault marines and again, don't bother looking too close. The digital camera brings you much closer than your own eyes will get in person.
I sprayed them black, but painted the armor with mechrite then blood. With a lot less armor, I did not want to have to paint over all the non armor spots of Dragon Red. I still wanted to go for the striking edgy style I discussed with my assault marines though, and you can see that in the khaki on the legs and especially on the weapons. I decided to try to explore the grey non metalic option. I based them with Adeptus Battlerey, then layered on Codex, fortress, astronomicon and finally white. In there some place I used some blue wash to reinforce the contrast and help push out the edges.
I will do a step by step post of painting the sergeant, and the next sniper that I do.
Oh and a huge grats to all the winners of The Heroes of Armageddon!
I am floored by the statistical freakshow that happened during the show. The charity project raised 31000 dollars. I would guess that about 5 to 6 thousand people donated. That is with 5k people donating the minimum and another thousand donating more. Those are meaningless numbers, except for this one cool little thing. About 85 people were watching the live drawing, which would be roughly 3% of the total participants. Well from that amazingly small number, 3 of the winners were drawn! Thats right. 3 of the winners were among the 85 actually watching the show.
What I did first was use random.org to generate 4 numbers. The first three numbers were pretty low, and the last was in the second half of the donations. Then John looked up those corresponding numbers in his donation charts to find the winners. To satiate my own curiosity, I went back and generated 30 numbers using the same parameters. You might be interested to know that I came up with 9 in the tens, 11 in the teens and 9 in the twenties and yes ONE in the thirties, with the highest being 30002 and the lowest being 893. That is about as random as you can get!
Back to the point! I could not believe that as John read off the names, the winners kept popping up in the chat. Amazing. I guess there is something to be said about watching my live show! I think the biggest thing all the winners had in common was that they donated small amounts, but often. One of them donated about 100 bucks in 20 dollar chunks throughout the course of the time period. Another made slightly higher donations, but still spread them out.
No matter what though, lets not lose sight of the point that the real winner here is Doctors Without Borders. They will be getting a big fat check from The Heroes of Armageddon and they will do some good with it. Every one of you who donated should feel satisfied about that. I sure am.
Congrats to every one. The live show was fun and I will be starting up with more of them soon. Feel free to tell me what you think of the scouts! Just remember to give constructive input on how you would correct or do differently. :)
Jawaballs
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30 comments:
The scouts look good. Personally Geordi is my fav.
That was amazing seeing 3/4 of the winners in the chat. Very strange odds going on there. Somewhere the stars aligned for that one.
Scouts looks very nice. I prefer the old metal scouts to the new plastics.
Awesome work.
I'm suprised yet excited that you field some scouts. There are not so many lists out there using them, but I bet you smash some faces with these guys.
Btw.
Your work and your videos allways inspired me. They had a major impact on how I built and painted my army. I used a lot of your tips while painting my first squad ever... Funny enough those were some scouts. ^^
They look quite similar to yours, with the orange highlights and the khaki trousers, but on a lower technical level of course.
http://images.dakkadakka.com/gallery/2011/7/26/251675_md-.JPG
Having said that I'm really curious how they work out for you.
Greetings...
As opposed to IG, GK and SW, BA don't have very useful troop choices. For the same price as 5 assault marines with no upgrades I can get 10 Vets in a chimera with 3 meltas and an auto cannon. So I have been theorizing that scouts may be the answer to some degree. Since you have to spend a LOT of points to make BA dangerous, I decided to go cheap on a couple of 100 point squads. the missile squad is 100 points and the fist/melta is 110. But the options they give me are good!
Forgot to type that the 5 marines would be in a las cannon razor.
And I like your scouts. Very nice! The fact that they are your first makes them even nicer. :)
Thanks...
Really nice to hear that from you.
;)
Concerning the Lascan Razorback.
Were you referring to a 5 men RAS?
I was wondering because the scouts can't have a dedicated transport.
Also I guess your CC squad can be quite viable considering scout movemnet/infiltrate. Especially for the price.
Yah, scouts cant have a transport. But once you take away that las cannon from the razor, or worse, take away the razor, the 5 man RAS is totally useless. At least sniper scouts with cloaks get a 2+ save and are super hard to kill and useful at range, and the fist/melta scouts out flank and throw a wrench into the works. My list is so super killy, it is nice to have a couple of other options for my NOT killy troops.
Ok. Now it makes sense.
I thought you were talking about putting the scouts into a Razorback you buy as a dedicated transport for some other troops, which would be then left out in the open and leave you losing your infiltrate ability on the scouts.
Totally made no sense. ^^
But speaking about the Sniper Scouts. I field them in every game and they only disappointed me once. It was dawn of war and I had to hoof them onto the field into cover, losing an important turn of shooting.
They are great against things with high toughness, light transports and sometimes they even get a lucky shot on a high armoured vehicle. They are sitting on objectives for whole games, not taking a single casualty.
Their cover save really made my day several times. It's a 3+ btw but I'm sure you just mistyped it.
Woops yah, was thinking about when I use my scouts with Stout Smurf in the trios game at Nova. He will be using his Techmarine to bolster defenses. Sniper scouts love that. :)
After painting all those gold models for the HOA project, I am commiting myself to NMM. This is a really good start, Jawa.
I had already developed a poor-man's method of painting NMM steel, here it is: basecoat Adeptus Battle Grey. Wash with Devlan mud (provides a nice almost rusty sheen). Let this dry. Then there are the successive highlights in this order: adeptus battle grey again, codex grey, then fortress grey and finally pure white. The final highlight of white should be strong, thin lines along the hard edges. It doesn't require much blending this when but it helps to water your paints down.
I use a lot of Tom something-or-otherwiz, that Eavy metal painter, his NMM as a good reference. (because it's in white dwarf and I can have it by my painting table).
Love the bright vibrant colors. That goes a long way.
My problem with scouts is their contribution to the list besides being scoring. 5 sniper scouts on average will only hit with 2-3. Then on average get 1-2 wounds. Factor in cover or the small chance of rending and their shootyness is quite abysmal for that 100 points. You basically are paying 100 points for a Sergeant (the only useful model) with a lower armor save. The CC ones are even worse with their WS and bad save in CC. Outflanking/infiltrating melta+fist seems like a good idea on paper, but not in practice. For that total 200 points, you can take a tactical squad with a ML and camp a home objective. They can survive shots just as easily with cover and 3+ armor save. Combat squading gives you more options. If an enemy comes in closer they can handle their own with bolters, combi weapon, fist and an assault weapon of any sort.
You are right Matthew as far as points and useful troops I suppose. I think I will work on a Tac squad after Nova. For now though, these scouts are it! :) Pretty much every second of painting time between now and Nova is spent and I have devoted some of that time to the scouts. Plus a single 10 man Tac wont cough up the kill point that my scout CC squad will. But I will speak for the effect that an outflanking fist/melta has on your opponent's plans.
Any time you can knock some one out of their usual rhythm is an advantage. That is the greatest value of the squad. But no, they don't do much more. :)
@ Matthew.
You haven't thought this one threw quite well.
For 100 points you get the cloaks and a ML.
The cloaks give you a 3+ cover save which is better than the armour save of a marine, because it protects me against Lascannons, Krak missiles and some other nasty stuff with a low AP.
So they are pretty much more survivable.
And I do not have to add that a ML is quite a useful tool. Even with BS 3.
And if you take 10 scouts it's the same cost of a tactical squad with ML and Lascannon. Only difference. Every weapon of the squad has a range of 48" and 9 of them cause a wound on a 4+ which is a 50% chance no matter how high the toughness is. Bye bye Monstrous creatures.
And the probability is high that you have at least one rending shot, which ignores armour saves and even FNP.
Another point you missed. Wounding a unit with a sniper rifle causes a pinning test. Which is great against horde armies with a low leadership. While you maybe only kill a single guy, you knock out a 20 men unit for a whole turn if they fail their test.
These guys really are more than meets the eye.
I think snipers are 36" range, but if you infiltrate them into a strategic location, that will give you most of the table. In three games at a tournament last weekend, my snipers did not die once, while the close combat ones got killed all three games.
I think in terms of usefulness and longevity, two squads of snipers with a missile and cloaks would probably suit me best. But alas, I am committed to the CC scouts for Nova! Just don't have time. Thats ok though. If I can pull out two wins on Saturday I will be happy, and I think my list can do that. Plus I have had some great success with the CC scouts in the past.
You are right. My bad.
But even if you only have the CC scouts available. The enemy has to be aware of them. Otherwise he will truely regret it.
@ Enz - You have some failed logic
Tac squads can't take a ML AND las cannon...Just one. Was this a typo?
You are also now comparing a 10-man scout squad to a 5-man scout squad and 10-man tactical squad..You can't do this as the units in question are a single 5-man sniper squad and a single 5-man CC squad. If he was going to use a single 10-man sniper squad you points would be more valid.
In my experience, 10 marines in cover last WAY longer than 5 scouts with cloaks in cover. Also, if your opponent is wasting MLs and Las cannons on your tactical squad in cover, then they are either not very good at the game, or most of your army has been taken out. MLs and Las are for AT, so unless you have NO other threatening units, your tactical squad camping on a home objective in cover are safe for at least four turns (from those particular weapons at least).
10 tactical marines vs 5 scouts with cloaks? Sure no one will argue about that, Matthew :) But 10 marines vs 10 scouts?
I would take 10 scouts(rather x2 5 mans squads for double ML and double sergeant) over 10 marines in BA codex any time, simple because of the infiltrate and double ML
@Matthew: My army list software let me do that. I actually didn't know it's not an option since I never use tacticals.
I brought the thing with the men up because you compared 10 marines to a 5 men group saying that they last longer. Of course they do. They are 5 men more.
;)
So I was talking about 10 men of scouts to make it comparable.
Also I do experience it every game that my opponent shoots wit LC and ML at my scouts.
Why?
It's the last turn and they are still sitting on the objective which will win me the game.
But hey... No offense. I'm glad that there isn't the one and only way to go. Would be pretty boring. All I can say is that my scouts won me quite a good amount of matches and I'm not so much interested in taking a full 10 men tactical squad just to unlock those special weapons.
I was actually comparing one 10-man tactical squad to two 5-man scout squads. One stationary sniper squad with ML and one outflanking squad with no ML.
@ Enyo - There aren't two scout MLs in this instance so I don't see your point...Also, if you are outflanking, that ML is quite useless most of the game on the CC squad (Which Jawa said he was doing)
My point, is in the context of of how he was planning to use them I see more benefit from a single 10-man tactical squad. Outflanking fist/combi-melta has a 33% chance of showing up on the wrong side. It's also only one shot and most anything will destroy those 5 measly scouts in CC even with the fist (which may not even get to swing). Sniper weapons are severely underwhelming in 40k. Combine this with a poor BS scout, low number of shots, cover saves and only wounding half the time you won't see much contribution from the 5-man squad. Heck, Eldar rangers/pathfinders being the best ones you can get (next to the Vindicare, but he doesn't count as he is a true sniper) are also VERY underwhelming in their damage output.
Forgot to add (and can't edit):
I could see an argument between a single 10-man scout squad over a single 10-man tactical squad. I just don't much use from the two MSU scout squads being used in the way as was stated.
Matthew, why are you so sure he will be using them just for outflanking? This is not the only use for CC scouts. Depending on opponent deployment, objectives placements and terrain, CC scouts will be doing and scouts moves and infiltration.
10 man tactical squad with ML is in the same cost range as x2 5 man sniper rifle scouts with ML. You will get more "Dead Rhinos per Game", infiltrate, better weapons range, and more interesting weapon, in general, than bolter.
I keep talking about outflanking with the CC squad, because he said that is what he will be doing with them...I also do not see how this is more dead rhinos as the CC squad will be in reserve or moving alot and thus unable to fire an ML (although, Jawa said he was not taking one in the CC squad). The combi will also only fire once. With the poor BS of the sniper squad with ML I can say with great certainty a tactical squad with a single ML would take out more rhinos reliably. Again, sure the sniper squad has more range, but again poor BS and underwhelming sniper weapons will cause very little damage over the coarse of a game.
Why scouts when you can take assault marines with razorbacks?
I love to see these discussions. It is nice to see more than one perspective on these things.
Ok, time to chime in, I am sitting in the chicago airport waiting for my flight.
The point with the scouts is that as opposed to IG, GK and SW who all have troops who are VERY effective. The Blood Angels don't. Aus Rotton, to answer you, a BA assault squad in a razor with las/plas costs 155 points or so. That is a naked 5 man assault squad in an AV11 razor with a las cannon/plas gun. Not terrible, but compared to the plethora of GK troops options, or an IG melta vet chimera unit and it is a suck. Razorbacks may well be AV10 thus are easily taken out by even the lightest of guns. Once the razor is taken out, you have five useless marines with no upgrades and a 12 inch bolt pistol range.
So I am looking for an alternative. Scouts give me options that can lend "some" fire power at a greater value.
If I am lucky, I can hide a razor with a TL Las on an objective and pick up a cover save all game. But that is at best a single 4+ cover save away from useless and it certainly will take fire because of it's high agro.
Now for 100 points I can put 5 scouts on that objective instead with cloaks and a missile. I might get 2 shots with that razor if I'm lucky, probably get 5 or 6 shots with the missile. No one shoots cloak scouts in terrain unless there is nothing to shoot. And all it takes to stop the shots going at them is to go to ground for a 2+ save and guys give up. So 100 points for scouts vs 155 points for a RAS? I think the scouts win. Plus I can infiltrate them after deployment at the best possible spot.
Close combat scouts? I have no delusions. They suck. As I think I mentioned, I am playing them because I like the models. The better choice for this unit would be to give them sniper rifles so that if they come in on the wrong side they may still get a couple shots.
But as risky as it is, outflank cannot be discounted. It forces guys out of their comfort zone. The greatest generals would tell you that any time you can force your enemy to make decisions they are not used to making, is a big advantage. The melta/fist sgt gives a chance to do some real damage in the back ranks. And with some luck he will get the upgrade from Sanguinor and the red thirst!
At any rate, while they are not as effective as Melta Vets, wolf pups, and GK (choose your troops) they are in my opinion a better choice than the naked RAS I was playing.
Mathew brings up a tactical option which deserves exploration. But for The Nova, I am going with two scout squads. For the fall GTs I will reconsider. :)
I disagree entirely with your analysis, I find blood angel troops very effective at producing down-field melta and beating up mediocre cc units. All while providing a second unit in the form of a heavy flamer razorback.
It's not analysis or opinion. It is experience from dozens of tournament games. 5 man squads in razors suck. Heavy flamerbacks will land that template on the enemy once if lucky. You can only get one melta gun in a razorback plus pistols which are not very useful.
I don't know if scouts are any better because I have not had the opportunity to play them. But I can say from hard fought experience that razorbacks with 5 marines inside are ineffective. Especially now with more high STR shots than ever showing up in tournaments in the form of GK and DE. They are easily outshined by troops from GK, DE and SW.
I think that spending points on them is a waste in the current tournament trend. Sure you will win a lot of games because they are good, but you won't win the games that matter at the top tables. I know.
I sorta contradict myself there at the end I just realize. Let me clarify my stance.
RAS in razors are not a terrible choice. I won a lot of games with them. But as the game has evolved, it has become clear that they are much worse than the troops in the other big books, DE, GK and SW. Books with highly effective troops choices have a big advantage in tournaments like Nova.
BA strength is not in their troops, and especially not in las/plas paperbacks that get killed if they are sneezed on by a psy cannon, missile or lance.
Scouts might not be better, but I think the options they may force some changes and hold their own.
I like the scout idea.
Also inflitrating with a ML, can put it in very good position to make side shots.
Also the more sniper rifle to wound rolls you have the larger are the chances of a rending wound.
What about a RAS in drop pod, without any upgrades they cost 100 points, throw in a meltagun and meltaboms, and you can hunt tanks.
How do you do the scouts insignia ?
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