My new Lamenters project follows that vein. It is not the strongest list, but I selected a good range of models that I can make look nice. But now I am already thinking beyond that army! It will really only see the light of day at Feast of Blades and DaBoyz. After that, I hope to have my new competitive army painted and on the table.
What is that you ask?
Did some one say Armageddon?
My next project after my Lamenters is going to be a Blood Angels/IG allied force modeled after the 3rd Company Blood Angels at the Battle of Armageddon. Steel Legion, Tycho, and lots of fun making a display with dead orks. :)
Here is a general idea of where I am going with this. Approximately 2k points.
Captain Tycho: There are not many captains left in 40k that grant LD 10 to the entire army. Tycho is one of them. He is a perfect commander to stick into a tactical squad to hold the line. His artificer armor makes him tougher vs those pesky power weapons that made him squirm in 5th edition, and he has some nice little tricks up his sleeve.
Blood Song: Combi melta with Special Issue Ammo! AP3 rounds... Mmmmm.
The Dead Man's Hand: There is something tasty about ignoring armor saves at full initiative. In 6th ed, armor value 2 is boss. Only AP2 close combat weapons bypass it, UNLESS there is a special weapon that says some such like "Ignores armor saves" and in that case, it is game on. Well Tycho's close combat weapon ignores armor saves. Plus it has an additional D6 vs Vehicle Armor. That makes him a Dread Killer, terminator destroyer, and all around anti assault dream. Finally, he gets a chance to reroll a failed wound every assault phase. Sweet.
Tycho came out the clear winner in the 6th ed sweepstakes, just barely ahead of Mephiston.
The Tycho Conversion by Tim Williamson for
the Heroes of Armageddon charity project!
Now for Troops:
Tactical Squads are back. Krak grenades are good now. With hull points, dreads and armor 12 vehicles need to fear Tactical squads since they can now throw their grenades rather than pinging some bolter rounds off their hulls while the special weapon fires its lone shot.
I will be playing at least two of them. Probably three. Throw in a Plasma/Melta gun and a Plasma Cannon and the Tactical squad is a versatile and devastating unit that can hold the line, especially if there is a priest near by.
Assault squads are no less dangerous and will always be my favorite. 6th Edition is about objectives, even more than 5th. My old tactics were to clump up as many as I could as close as possible, and just throw my entire army right in the middle of it. But now, the better tactic is to spread them out. And you need speed to get to them. Vehicles are dead. I don't care what any one says. Hull Points get eaten up like Skittles and the Rhino is vulnerable to any gun in the game with STR 5 and up. It may get you 12" of movement, which really is its only job, but after that it is gone. It cannot be counted on for getting your unit across a table with every heavy bolter and multi laser blasting away. That is where the assault squad is better. And again, throw in a priest, and it has the movement and survivability to get the job done.
My new army will have at least one.
What else? Well I am currently in love with Blood Angels bike squads and biker priests. A squad of 8 bikes with two plasma guns and a fist is dangerous. Throw in a biker priest, and they are now a force to be reckoned with. I think my Armageddon force is screaming for a bike squad.
So, the main force of my army is going to be Tycho, a few priests, and about 50 pissed off marines playing various roles.
But that's not all!
Bring in the Steel Legion!
The Steel Legion for the HoA project. Team led by
Dave Taylor
My first choice is a simple command squad. A low ranking LT with some support staff. I am equipping as many guys as I can with plasma guns, and throwing them into a Chimera. Their job is to be annoying, provide cover, and get in the way.
My allied force can pack two troops, and I have been wanting to play them since I first went to Bolscon in 2008. Or was it 2009? No matter. Plasma Vets!!!! That's right folks. I'm bringing the love that is a space marine minus the power armor packing more heat than an entire company of the Emperor's finest. I am playing two 10 man Vet squads in Chimeras. Throw in 3 plasma guns and an auto cannon each and we have some hot juicy love. It will be so incredibly satisfying to get to play them against all of those flavor of the month guard players and feed em back some of their medicine.
Granted, the best part about the Plasma/Melta vet unit was their sheer numbers and I will only have two, and granted twice that the chimera is just as dead as the Rhino nowadays, but still. The plasma vet is a fun, fluffy and effective unit no matter which way you shake it.
And rounding out my force? How bout a unit of Hydra Flak Tanks. Two or three of those damn things ought to get the job done vs flyers and infantry with equal ease.
Yup folks, allies are wonderful. They finally give me what I have been hoping for. My beloved 9th legion, supported by long range fire power that previously they could only dream about. Four score of pissed off hard to kill power armor maniacs backed up by lots of long range light armor killing punch.
This is a list that I think I can win some games with, AND it if fluffy as hell.
So that's it! A strong core of blood angels troops supported by some mobile steel legion, anti air, and solid anti infantry and anti light armor fire power. It won't be a particularly aggressive army, but in 6th edition, you don't need to be. All you really need to do is have more objective than your opponent at the end of the day.
Game on.
What do you guys think? IG is new to me. Are there better choices for the Steel Legion? Should I make them my mother army? Are there better choices than Flak Tanks? Aegis Defense lines? Sound off!
I remind you that I have comment moderation active. If your comment does not go up right away, don't re type it, I will get to it soon!
Jawaballs
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28 comments:
I'm kind of down on the Hydra now. It has Skyfire, but not Interceptor, so shots at ground targets are snap-shots.
Manticore & Vendetta is the way to go IMO, maybe 2 Vendettas...they're incredible.
Love the Plasma flavor, but not sure about Plasma Cannon on the Tacticals...can't Snap-Fire those, which will get you in situations where the gun will be wasted sometimes, which is frustrating.
Love the Biker Squae + Priest, really solid. And Tycho certainly is a beast now!
With CPT Tycho, and the "ignore armor saves", are you folks playing it as effectively AP 2? Guessing I was assuming it would be ruled a "power weapon" with special rules, so AP 3... But of course, lacking the answer from the FAQ... Not bad in any case, but 2+ armor would be a problem the way I am playing it. Playing Fleshtearers myself, converting a "CPT Tycho equivalent" as one of the few remaining Company Commanders, something different to run with my Sternguard, etc...
Still not convinced that Tac Squads are worth it, but good luck! My own play style is more toward the Assault troops... The single krak grenade thrown/squad is "eh", and while snap fire is nice, I found having the extra attacks in HtH to be better overall... Though my horrible luck with the Tac squad's Las cannons might also color my perception :-) Good Luck with them!
I agree with Ordo Bob. If you want to get the most out of a guard ally then I'd have to suggest a Vendetta and a Manticore. They have both been my go-to units when something really needs to die. And without Interceptor, your Hydra shots are mostly wasted if there are no flyers around.
I like the plasma vet choice as well. I've been tempted to upgrade some of my Melta vets to Plasma vets.
Personally, I don't like to mix heavy weapons with my veteran squads. You may come to place where you can either stand still fire your autocannon at unit X, or move 6" and rapid fire plasma into unit Y. In those moments, I prefer to not give myself the chance to second guess my choice. This also makes you more apt to move your Veterans up field with your Tactical Squads. My guard motto is, "Together we survive, separated, we all die."
Finally, I'd keep the Blood Angels as your primary army. I've tried to add allies to my IG list, but I've found IG can add a lot as an Ally, but don't tend to gain much from taking Allies themselves.
I will have to look at Vendettas. So many toys! I wasn't really liking the idea of buying Forgeworld guns any way. The plasma cannon though is pretty good. It is a super cheap buy, and while cannot snap fire, will definitely provide lots of mid range punch for most of the game. They are really effective, especially vs MSU, and hard to hide from. Snap fire is just a little bonus any way. It is not meant to be a tactical element that you plan your army around.
Thats good to know about the Hydra, I did not. :) Thanks!
Pchappel, I guess you are right, I need to check the FAQ and see where the weapon lies. It is probably an AP3 now...
Looking at page 61 I think that Tycho's weapon simply "ignores armor saves" so it does not have an AP value, but a Terminator would still get no armor save. The rule to determine the AP of unusual weapons covers power weapons only. Tycho's is not a PW. So it goes at normal initiative, ignores armor, and has no AP.
This brings me to Dante's weapon. It also stands outside the rules on 61. It is a power weapon with a secondary special rule. The rule says that if the weapon says it is a power weapon with NO further special rules, than look at the model to decide which type of weapon it is. But since The Ax Mortalis does have a further special rule, it has to be considered an unusual power weapon, and as such be AP3. Thoughts?
Lots of hate and discontent on Dakka about that axe: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/471157.page
I agree with you...it's a power weapon, so it's AP3. :(
I just shared my two cents on Dakka. As much as I hate posting on forums... Neither camp is right. Dante's weapon does not fit into either of the categories outlined on page 61.
Yeah Jawa Tycho's weapon does not ignore all armor saves it is considered a unique power weapon, (a power weapon with a unique rule not usr's) and if you read page 61 any weapon like tycho's is treated as AP3 with any unique rule it has so no it does not ignore saves.
With Dante its fairly simple, if your weapon has a unique rule I.E a non-USR then it is an unusual power weapon making it AP3. Master crafted is a USR so it is in fact a normal power axe since it has no unique rule...people are just plain silly in that case imho the book is quite clear since power weapons have now been defined specifically. If it stated he had a power sword he would have a sword. hmmm somehow this is turning into an article for me.
Anyway the list is cool, even though squads can only throw one krak grenade and it cannot be at normal units (only vehicles and MC's) they are ok but can be good.
For IG hydras are meh, suck against ground targets now. I would suggest vendettas since they are super broken for the time being (until the next few codixes make skyfire more available) and either medusa's (s10 ap2 large blast) or manticores. glhf :)
I like where you're going with your allied army, but I have to agree that the Hydra isn't always worth it in a tourney setting. If you're playing against friends that you know will have flyers then they're great, but the lack of Interceptor can hinder them. On the other hand they do fire a ton of shots so it may still be worth taking a look at.
For your Vet squads I know BoxerSaint suggested dropping the Auto Cannons, but if used correctly they could really help out. Remember that heavy weapons can remain stationary while the rest of your squad moves up as long as they remain in unit coherency. So move your unit up leaving the Auto Cannons behind in the turn you want to shoot that unit and just leave a Lasgun equipped Vet or two a little behind to keep coherency. Also if you absolutly must move them they can still Snap Shot, and they have enough shots that in a pinch might still be worth it.
As for Tycho's rule, it ignores armour saves period. It has nothing to do with power weapon rules so the "unusual power weapon" ruling has no relevence.
I also LOVE the BA Bikes now!! They get FnP against everything except str 10 weapons if you have a bike or JP equipped Sanguinary Priest with them (I prefer the bike for the extra toughness making the Priest tougher as well).
And finally, the Aegis Defence Lines. I use them all the time. Their rule says each section needs to be in contact with one other section, so you can split them into as many as four sections. They have the ability to buy a Quadgun, Icarus Lascannon or a Comms Relay (personally I like the Quadgun, more so if it's being crewed by someone with a decent BS). Also it doesn't say anywhere that the guns/relay need to be in contact with any of the Aegis sections so you could place them anywhere in your deployment zone. And the +2 to your cover save when you go to ground is awesome with guard, as long as you have a Commander that can order them back to their feet the following turn.
I like where you're going with your allied army, but I have to agree that the Hydra isn't always worth it in a tourney setting. If you're playing against friends that you know will have flyers then they're great, but the lack of Interceptor can hinder them. On the other hand they do fire a ton of shots so it may still be worth taking a look at.
For your Vet squads I know BoxerSaint suggested dropping the Auto Cannons, but if used correctly they could really help out. Remember that heavy weapons can remain stationary while the rest of your squad moves up as long as they remain in unit coherency. So move your unit up leaving the Auto Cannons behind in the turn you want to shoot that unit and just leave a Lasgun equipped Vet or two a little behind to keep coherency. Also if you absolutly must move them they can still Snap Shot, and they have enough shots that in a pinch might still be worth it.
As for Tycho's rule, it ignores armour saves period. It has nothing to do with power weapon rules so the "unusual power weapon" ruling has no relevence.
I also LOVE the BA Bikes now!! They get FnP against everything except str 10 weapons if you have a bike or JP equipped Sanguinary Priest with them (I prefer the bike for the extra toughness making the Priest tougher as well).
And finally, the Aegis Defence Lines. I use them all the time. Their rule says each section needs to be in contact with one other section, so you can split them into as many as four sections. They have the ability to buy a Quadgun, Icarus Lascannon or a Comms Relay (personally I like the Quadgun, more so if it's being crewed by someone with a decent BS). Also it doesn't say anywhere that the guns/relay need to be in contact with any of the Aegis sections so you could place them anywhere in your deployment zone. And the +2 to your cover save when you go to ground is awesome with guard, as long as you have a Commander that can order them back to their feet the following turn.
a thing on dante's axe. the blood crozious is defined exactly the same"a mastercrafted power weapon" and it got faq'd to be wysiwyg, i.e. a power maul.
the only reason it would need to be faq'd is if being mastercrafted does in fact make you have a unique weapon.
also around page 23 of the BA codex is a section stating that any piece of wargear listed on the unit description page is unique wargear.
so axe mortalis, executioners axe , glaive encarmine, blood crozious etc.
And finally, if Kharns axe and the blood crozius both get faq'd to be wysiwyg, the must both be unique power weapons.
Love your stuff Jawa :)
Pascalnz
Interesting, there are some things I would like to mention though:
Hydras only hit ground units on 6s, which makes them really bad when the opponent doesn't have fliers, and not to mention that the fliers will be able to shoot the hydras before they fire back. I would rather have gotten a Vendetta which is just as good vs air and ground units.
Next up is rhinos. You say vehicles are dead in 6th, which I can't say I agree on, but I aren't interested in a long debate about it. Short version is though, you only need 1 round of movement from them (up to 24'' with fast), and they protect your troops. I wouldn't get them for assault marines, but deffinitely for the tacticals (which are a great unit, I agree on that).
Also, if we look at the fluff, wasn't it on Armageddon the blood angels modified their motor pool to go faster (at least the land raiders if I remember correctly) so a couple vehicles would be fluffy as they were up against speed freeks?
I ain't exactly excited about Tycho, with ATSKNF you don't need LD10, he costs alot and aren't exactly a monster in melee. He may ignore armour saves but with 4 attacks on the charge, he may down 1 shield termi.
I don't really see how people can argue him to be AP3 when he isn't equipped with a power weapon, it merely says on his bolter that his attacks ignore armour saves.
Dunno if anything of this is of any help, good luck with the list building regardless ;)
Heck Jawa...it has ax in the name...so power ax plus plus...
Ingvar, after playing a game tonight, and I admit I am still learning, I realized just how fast BA tanks are. There certainly is some merit that BA rhinos are the exception to my statement that tanks are dead. You really do only need to move them once and they have done their job. So as a delivery system, they indeed are good. IF they dont get picked off before they get to move.
When I say they are dead, it is because now guys are shooting every mid str weapon in the game at them and before they were not. The multi laser for example. Hull points turn that gun into a VERY effective rhino killer. But also, the Heavy Bolter can do the job too. An autocann predator with HB sponsons can now easily knock out a rhino when before it was lucky to slow it down. Hull Points allow many more weapons to become reliable rhino killers, SO, I contend that rhinos are dead.
Do you feel that tycos rites of battle rule states "use his leadership"? I regularly play a tau player and he destroyed my army ( seeing how he ran lots of markerlights).
Do you feel that tycos rites of battle rule states "use his leadership"? I regularly play a tau player and he destroyed my army ( seeing how he ran lots of markerlights).
Ming, I get what you are saying, but aren't there other weapons that appear to be one thing but are resolved differently? Some sort of scythe?
I am not arguing for Dante to be AP3 PW because I have no stakes in this, I have not used Dante since 4th Ed. But it really doesn't make sense for him to be a model pointed out with such a high initiative, only to be given a weapon that takes it away.
Axe Mortalis aside, the weapon falls under neither of the categories for determining it's characteristics in the rule book. I don't care one way or another, aside from the fact that it makes interesting discussion.
What is funny is the guys on Dakka who argue their side like a fanatic.
Pascalnz, I don't know any thing about Kharne, and I don't have my BA book today. Is a Blood Crozius a named weapon like The Axe Mortalis? Or is it a generic named wargear like a Blood Chalice. I think that with situations like this, it supports the argument for Dante's weapon being AP3. The others got an FAQ, and Dante's did not. That might suggest that the developers felt that Dante's is sufficiently defined by the rules. (Unique weapon, further special rules, must be AP3) Other wise they would have given an FAQ like they did with Kharn. (Unique weapon, further special rules, AP2 but slow)
Greetings Jawa,
I'm a long time watcher of your blog, but I've never commented....until now! Mainly because I feel I can give some good advice. I have played blood angels ever since the PDF codex was released and played IG since 3rd ed. I love both armies and think they work exceptionally well together in 6th ed.
I agree that tac squads are really brilliant in 6th ed( heavy bolter and plasma works well), I especially like them in Rhinos due to their great speed. Excellent delivery system for first turn objective grabbing and last minute objective grabbing.
For your guard allies I would recommend this, Leman Russ tanks!! Play test them...you'll love them. I run a full squad with my Blood angels as such: Exterminator with hull heavy bolter and sponsons and two stock Battle tanks with hull heavy bolter and hull lascannon. Very flexible squadron, can take on most enemies....well all really great for hordes and power armour.
Also, your choice of vets is great autocannon's work really well as does plasma. In the interest of points and practicality, two autocannon's in a squad that's meant to charge forward in a chimera hop out, rapid fire then likely die...it may be a waste. I would say toss a fist or plasma pistol on the veteran sergeants instead.
I love where you're going with allies, Jawa- the same direction I'm headed ;). In my allied IG list, I have included a barebones command squad, Marbo (65 points and he can come in anywhere on the board within an inch of an enemy. He gets a demo-charge attack- wow), a plasma vet squad, 1-2 Vendetta(s) w/HB sponsons (playing against them is frightening), and a Manticore. Definitely check out the Manticore- it is the perfect artillery piece to cover your units as they push forward.
With regard to Tycho: His weapon was not defined as a power weapon in the FAQ, therefore, it is not held to any of the power weapon rules found in the rulebook. It is a cc weapon that ignores armor saves; a model can still take any invuln save available to it.
Your original assessment of Tycho is correct; he is a beast (and one of few HQs that can ignore armor saves)- An AP value is not associated with his cc attacks because it ignores armor saves completely.
Next is Dante's Axe; the Axe Mortalis. On page 23 of the Blood Angels codex unique weapon and equipment are clearly defined. For a much more detailed explanation, you're welcome to visit my blog post about it
Suffice to say that I believe the intent is that the Axe Mortalis and Glaive Encarmine(s) are unusual power weapons and AP3.
In conclusion, I love the direction you're going with your list. I love the fluff elements (incorporating Legion of Steel with your Blood Angels), I would suggest taking a look at the Death Korps from Forge World. When compared directly with the metal LoS models, the comparison is night and day. Trust me: You will have never painted anything as beautiful as those Forge World DKOK- I can't stress that enough.
Gonewild, I have to disagree about DkoK. I had a few squads but they were so poorly formed, I had to replace half the arms and weapons with Cadian ones... They looked cool, but I was unhappy with the casts. Perhaps I can try again.
I honestly feel that Dante's weapon isn't actually covered in the rule book. I understand the argument for it being "unique." But it really isn't, it is a weapon with a USR that has a name, does that make it unique? Not really.
Basically the rulebook doesn't state a Uniquely named Wargear with a USR...what is it? That seems to be a the issue, the rulebook references "unusual" power weapons with "unique" rules, but what about "unique" power weapons with special rules?
^I think that is the bottom dollar argument really. I for the purpose of my sanity have been playing it as a master-crafted power sword, which is foolish considering it is called "AXE of Mortalis."
An axe by any other name...
Tolkien called a sword Foe Hammer.
Steven king called an Arrow the same thing.
If a sword and an arrow can be called a hammer, cannot a sword be called an Axe?
That Tycho conversion is sweet. This army idea of yours is very inspiring. I've got a whack of store credit saved up, and though I have no time to build it all (and certainly no time to paint it!) I'm really tempted by a Guard + Marine combo.
That really sucks, Jawa. I've heard complaints regarding FW and bad casts, which is really hard to accept because of their inflated cost. I hope Customer Service made it right for you.
Dante's model was made a long time ago. he was made with an axe because it looked sweet. i am guessing had it been known in 2012 we would be swinging really slow with axes(/shrug), the model would have been armed with a sword(The Sword Mortalis). But, unfortunately, it wasn't.
--WYSIWYG--
The Axe Mortalis: The Axe Mortalis is a master-crafted power weapon. (pg 53, codex Blood Angels)
It doesn't say it is a power axe, says power weapon, so make your own custom model with a sword. bam, problem solved.
But really, just let the player with Dante decide pre game how he will use the weapon and just make sure he is consistent and have fun. don't be a douche and ruin the fun because it will give you a slight edge. or have a shitty day and GFO
Dante's Axe needs to be FAQ'd for clarification. However, I have been playing it as a master crafted power axe. It has special rules attached, but these special rules are USRs, not UNIQUE special rules. so then it is not an unusual power weapon. The codex says it is a PW, and so you look to see what the model has. It is clearly an Axe and thus is a master crafted power axe.
Tycho's dead man's hand ignores armor saves. i don't see the confusion. The codex doesn't even call it a power weapon so it does not even fall under any of the rules for power weapons, or unusual power weapons. In fact, it doesn't even act as a normal weapon as it simply states "Tycho's close combat attacks ignore armor saves". it doesn't say "Attacks with the dead man's hand ignore armor saves". It is actually just changing the way Tycho would normally even attack.
A month too late but...
People often forget that Skimmers can also be hit with Skyfire units. Between Flyers, FMCs, and Dark Eldar/Eldar, you have a safe bet of always having a target. Not to mention that they're still dropping Vendettas when they enter Hover mode.
Glad they answered the Axe question.
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