In a recent game, I learned a lesson about vehicle facing and cover saves. My opponent was trying to shoot at the Baal Pred with the Cherub on the front with a Lascannon. He was close to 4 feet away, almost in the extreme opposite corner from where the tanks were. We did not measure it, but I believe he was in the vehicles "Side" facing. He could see none of the side facing because it was completely blocked by the black rhino. But, he claimed that the rules supported that he could shoot at the vehicles Front, since he could see all of it, and he was right when we looked at line of sight. He claimed that since he could see 100% of the vehicles front face, he could take a shot with no cover save and quoted a rule, and thumbed through the rule book and read some segment of the cover save rules.
The rules on "Facing" were unclear to me at the time. So after asking him to explain why I got no cover save even though he could only see about 20% of my tank and failing to understand, I relented and accepted it. I prefer to save rules discussions for after the game instead of spending 20 minutes looking up and interpreting a rule during the game.
After reading the rules myself, and digesting what they said, I have come up with this.
A model fireing at a tank must challenge the armor value of the side that he is "Facing". That means, based on a diagram in the book, you figure out which side of the tank is facing the model and that is the one he has to attack. It goes on to say that in rare events a model might not be able to see any of the "Facing" side of the tank at all, yet may still see another side of the tank. In that case he may choose to fire on the the angled "Facing" but the tank will get the benefit of a 3+ cover save.
So, we resolved the matter incorrectly. Insead of my getting no cover save at all, I should have gotten a 3+! The first thing for us to have done would be to determine which "Facing" of the vehicle the attacking model was on. In this case, we would have placed a the end of the tape on the Back Right corner of the tank, and extended it out over the Front Left corner of the tank, and then off into infinity. Which ever side of that line the model was on would be the "Facing" He had to attack.
This is quite valuable because now I know how to determine exactly which side of my tanks my opponents can shoot. It was always a little grey to me. I tend to find my enemies at angles where they can see the side and back of my Baal Preds, and of course, they try to choose the Back! Now using that simple diagram, I can say sorry sucka! You have to shoot the Side, or Front for that matter if they are on that angle... It also helps to clear up cover save issues.
Comments? Input?
JB.
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13 comments:
Facing for the nice boxy imperial tanks is pretty easy. Find the center of the model. Track line of sight from shooter to center. When you get to the tank what part are you crossing. You totally got hosed in the rules for this one.
The Eldar tanks with their curves tanks are a bigger problem.
Your method seems to me to leave room for interpretation and areguement. Any time you leave any thing up to LoS from a model, and non absolute, it gets a bit wonky. I like the diagram in the book better. A straight line starting at one corner, going through the opposite corner, then extending out into space. It has nothing to do with what the model can actually see by LoS at all. It is all determined by the models base. Figure out where the base is in relation to "facing" of the vehicle, then determine LoS and how much of the vehicle is obscured.
For Wave Serpents, I guess you would need to maybe use dice to determine a roughly rectangular shape around the object.
If you have a flat topped tank and can remove the turret you can also lay the little red measuring stick across the corners of the tank as the line guide. Ofcourse you plastic stick needs to be straight. To much to ask for from the GW ones. This is functionally identical to the diagram and does not require holding the tap measure while trying to line up the position from above which allows for angle errors.
Since I have 7 Rhino based vehicles in my army, it would probably be wise of me to get a nice, straight 10" rod of some sort. that way I can just lay it across from corner to corner, then use measuring tape to extend the line. Good tip!
ok I need to take a close look at these rules. It seems I have a very different view on this I guess from th old style of play but I guess it's important. But link Eriochrome pointed out this is all nice but how does this travel to not box tanks? what is a corner? from where are you shooting at the rear armour?
I have to say GW left a lot of blanks in this with the rule book and leaves way to much room for interpretation. this isn't a rule it's all most a guide line.
sorry if I sound ranting but I can see this becoming another BS thing gamers are going to use to claim even more ridiculous save on their armour since I'm firing at it from a funny angle.
But it seems Jawa that even though you don't like to spend 20 Min reading this while in the game things like this are costing you so even though you don't like to mess up the sportsmanship of a game you might want to get down and dirty some more since it isn't doing you justice.
Cheers CJ
Bummer, sounds like a lesson learned the hard way.
I'm of the thought that you figure out the facings using the tank first and then see where the shooters LOS falls in.
Well, the shot in question missed any way. :) And yah CJ, I need to be a little less accepting and stand my ground more. Some dudes take advantage of easy going players, counting on their desire to earn sportsmanship, then the tards dock em points any way!
CJ check on page 60. THe diagram is pretty clear. Using the two opposite corners as points, you draw a vector the side of the line the model falls on determins which side of the tank he can shoot. If a model falls on a line, it goes to majority of squad, or majority of model. If its just one model, and the shooter wants to argue, I would be fine with a roll off if he is on the line.
But this certainly clears up dudes taking extreme angle shots at the back of my tanks. It really annoys me when they crank their necks around their models to try to catch a glimpse of the back. It does away with that wishy washy decision and ensueing arguements.
"you want to shoot my back armor? lets see which side of the tank is facing you...oh you are in the Sides facing...sorry you cant shoot the back." Easy.
I know which diagram you mean but the question is which 2 corners do I use? that's the iffy part that leaves a lot of room for interpretation I believe?
Cheers CJ
I didn't think about it until now, but I think this is one of those situations where the (overpriced) GW laser pointer could come in handy. Not just for determining actual LOS, but also because it traces a straight line from the shooter to the target, so you probably could more easily determine which facing the shooter's got.
The laser pointer would be a liability here. It is only useful to determine if he can actually see the tank, which will be pretty obvious. If he is at angle enough to see the back, he is of course going to try to shoot it. Line of sight has nothing to do with "Facing". It is the position of the vehicle and the shooter that determines which armor value to use in the shot, not what the shooter can see.
i agree with jawaballs this is explained clearly with text and a diagram, in the rule book page 60
when ever a opponent makes a argument about armour facing, go to this page and work it out from there, text and diagram explain the rule for vehicle facing simple.
Yup! In a tank heavy list like mine, every time I can stop some one from shooting at the back or side of my tanks is a minor victory. In the past, I was letting dudes get shots on rear armor because they can hit it with that damn laser pointer, or just simply see it... Not no more! Now they gona have to work for it.
they have too work for it and follow the rule's in the book, it's laid out for all too see.
maybe it's me but i don't understand disagreements on rule's when there stated so plainly in the book, older codex's mixed in with new rule book yes that will cause problems, that's why you have faq, adepticon has a huge faq covering all 40k army's free download, and there's a argument that this faq book could be used in all games intel gw sort's out there faq which are lagging behind
if you used this faq book would solve a lot of arguments, it's like having a set rule's too stop misunderstanding's between player's and keeping the game flowing.
if your going too print this faq print it at work it's huge.
and check out bell of lost souls ig spread sheet it's french but wot the hell
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