Sorry about the huge email. Loving to hear your opinions. Hope it isn't too much. Can't wait to read the response.
Thanks, once more, for good luck,
Xethik
(I think I sent this twice, once from my alternate email. Please ignore if that is so, sorry.)
On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 5:00 PM, Chris Dubuque
Wow, big email. Let me have some time to read it and I will get back to you on my blog.
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2010 16:53:32 -0500
Subject: Dark Angels List
From: xethik@gmail.com
To: jawaballs@hotmail.com
Hey Jawaballs! Thanks for taking your time on my message.
I know you don't play Dark Angels nor are Blood Angels anything like Dark Angels, but I thought you might be able to help a fellow Angel of Death make a 1750 point list.
So my 1500 games have been going all right, ties around the board with a couple wins and losses. One problem I'm having is having to sacrifice my Attack bikes (I haven't kept either one til the end) in order to pop an armored vehicle sitting in the back with a blast/large blast weapon, usually something that hurts. That is why my lists will be pretty geared toward what it is, in order to keep my bikes from ALWAYS getting themselves killed to popping transports running up the field or getting in an assault to tie up units. Anyways, maybe I'm just using my bikes wrong, but sometimes I don't even get to my target before getting killed, even when doing my best to block line of sight and get turbo-boost saves. Any help there can help (and I have read your article on attack bikes, and I'm reconsidering bumrushing them like this as they are each one easy kill point).
Now, I'll tell you about who I usually play against. Right now, I mainly play with good friends each week, and we are pretty casual, especially about WYSIWYG rules, especially with my Chaos Space Marine friend who uses Kharn to represent Ahriman or different painted guys for special weapons. I really don't want to gear any list to FOCUS one army but be an overall good army, flexible at each objective and opposing forces. One of my friends runs a nasty Eldar, throwing everything into his list, with no real specific focus. He plays Eldrad with warlocks, a Phoenix Lord, sometimes banshees, sometimes harlequins, sometimes a wave serpent, falcons, wraithguard, warp spiders, dark reapers, rangers and pathfinders, and dire avengers. You never know what is going to wreck you next, and he has some close combat machines with long range support. Also, we play on a small table, so maybe this gives him some advantages. Snipers always being in range but with great cover saves and close combat dangerously close. Either way, he has some great tactics and destroys. Another guy I play with uses Chaos Space Marines and has tried everything but a Slaanesh lash army. His overall strategy usually involves "alpha striking", going all out on someone hoping to crush them before they can act. He uses a land raider for pushing up his HQs and close combat troop (or he'll deep strike) and lots of rhinos, sometimes a defiler or a dread. Always packs in some Obliterators. Usually uses three "special" chaos, Thousand Sons, Berzerkers, or Plague marines, or a combination. Throws in some terminators coming in on a deep strike, too. Had some close games with him, and I've gotten blown out of the water. Next up is a classic Space Marines player, playing a Salamander themed army. He has a great list coming up, just needs the parts. I know he wants to field Vulkan, 5 or more assault terminators, a Land Raider Redeemer for these fellows, either a Librarian in terminator armor or a Master of the Forge, Sternguard Veterans, and tacticals with meltas/flamers like a true Salamander. He also has been toying with Devastators and I know he wants to throw in a Thunderfire Cannon or Ironclad Dreads. We also have a Tau player building a force and an Ork player. Not much information about them yet. I apologize for his excruciatingly long message, so here comes my basic list.
1 Belial w/ Light. Claws – 130
Terminator Armor, WS/BS 5, Str/T 4, 3 wounds
1 Sammael on Jetbike - 205
WS/BS 5, Str 4, T 4(5), 3+ Armor save, 4+ Invul save, eternal warrior
Jetbike w/ plasma cannon and TL Storm bolter, master-crafted power weapon
5 DW Term - 280
Apoth(30), 1 Chain Fist (5) , Assault Cannon (30)
Power sword + SB Sarg, 3xSB+PF
5 DW Term – 235
Light. Claws x 5, Cyclone (20)
5 DW Term – 250
Assault Cannon (30), Chain fist (5), Pow. Sword + SB Sarg
3 RW Bikes - 230
Apoth (15), plasma x 2(30), sarg, pow sword (15),
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
3 RW Bikes – 205
Meltagun (10), meltagun (10), sarg pow sword (15),
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
This is my "basic" list in which I have units I think I would need, and I will build off of it. So, I have a couple options from here. I'm looking for some simple squad upgrades with my remaining points, adding up to 215 remaining. But first, I should go over some army specific rules. First off, everything I have listed is fearless. Secondly, I get Deathwing Assault. This allows me to deepstrike up to half (rounded up) of my terminators turn one and combined with all my bikes having teleport homers and scouting ability (but no turbo-boost), I can get most of my guys in with no injury turn one and back up my bikes with shooting. I was thinking about dropping the 3rd terminator squad (Assault cannon and chain fist), allowing me only to deepstrike one squad and Belial, compared to two squads and Belial if I chose so. So now that you hopefully can see an overall idea of my army, I'll put up some of my ideas. I can upgrade my bikes to having 6 squad members, (100 for 3 on each) and then either meltabombs on both and have 5 points to ponder on elsewhere or put a plasma pistol on the plasma gun squad. My next idea was to throw in two predators, one an annihilator without any weapon sponsons and the other a destructor with heavy bolters and a pintle-mounted storm bolter. This fills my points up and adds a tank hunting tank and a tank that can dish out enough shots to make any MEQ squad cry, up to 10. Using this on something like Eldrad or terminators will hopefully force one screw up save, and hopefully more. My next option was a bit more radical with my list. I dropped the third terminator squad and added devastators with two lascannons and two plasma cannons and a predator annihilator with lascannon sponsons, and changing the cyclone terminator in the lightning claw squad to an assault cannon with a chainfist (Dark Angels can mix terminator types). I was considering dropping the lascannon sponsons on the predator to heavy bolters, dropping a lascannon on the devastators, and reverting to a cyclone launcher for a Razorback transport on the devastators (wouldn't put the devastators in it unless it is Dawn of War, and then I would combat squad the heavy weapons in) with twin-linked lascannons, but I'm not sure the drop of three lascannons is worth an extra mobile one that can also be expendable devastator cover. Maybe I'm wrong here and you agree on the Razorback, but it would just be an extra kill point on such missions and an expensive lascannon. So, here are my final lists, which I'm sending you so you can see where I'm coming from.
Simple upgrade to 1750:
1 Belial w/ Light. Claws – 130
Terminator Armor, WS/BS 5, Str/T 4, 3 wounds
1 Sammael on Jetbike - 205
WS/BS 5, Str 4, T 4(5), 3+ Armor save, 4+ Invul save, eternal warrior
Jetbike w/ plasma cannon and TL Storm bolter, master-crafted power weapon
5 DW Term - 280
Apoth(30), 1 Chain Fist (5) , Assault Cannon (30)
Power sword + SB Sarg, 3xSB+PF
5 DW Term – 235
Light. Claws x 5, Cyclone (20)
5 DW Term – 250
Assault Cannon (30), Chain fist (5), Pow. Sword + SB Sarg
6 RW Bikes - 235
Apoth (15), plasma x 2(30), sarg, pow sword (15), meltabombs
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
6 RW Bikes – 210
Meltagun (10), meltagun (10), sarg pow sword (15), meltabombs
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
Two predators:
1 Belial w/ Light. Claws – 130
1 Sammael on Jetbike - 205
5 DW Term - 280
Apoth(30), 1 Chain Fist (5) , Assault Cannon (30)
Power sword + SB Sarg, 3xSB+PF
5 DW Term – 235
Light. Claws x 5, Cyclone (20)
5 DW Term – 250
Assault Cannon (30), Chain fist (5), Pow. Sword + SB Sarg
3 RW Bikes - 235
Apoth (15), plasma x 2(30), sarg, pow sword (15), meltabombs
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
3 RW Bikes – 210
Meltagun (10), meltagun (10), sarg pow sword (15), meltabombs
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
Predator Annihilator – 105
TLLC (35)
Predator Destructor - 100
Autocannon, Heavy bolter sponsons (25), pintle-SB(5)
Devs and pred 1:
1 Belial w/ Light. Claws – 130
1 Sammael on Jetbike - 205
5 DW Term - 280
Apoth(30), 1 Chain Fist (5) , Assault Cannon (30)
Power sword + SB Sarg, 3xSB+PF
5 DW Term – 250
Light. Claws x 4, assault cannon (30), chainfist (5),
3 RW Bikes - 230
Apoth (15), plasma x 2(30), sarg, pow sword (15),
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
3 RW Bikes – 205
Meltagun (10), meltagun (10), sarg pow sword (15),
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
Predator Annihilator – 165
TLLC (35), lascannon sponsons (60)
Devastators – 285
+5 squad members (75)
Lascannon x 2 (70), Plasma cannon x 2 (50)
Devs and pred 2:
1 Belial w/ Light. Claws – 130
1 Sammael on Jetbike - 205
5 DW Term - 280
Apoth(30), 1 Chain Fist (5) , Assault Cannon (30)
Power sword + SB Sarg, 3xSB+PF
5 DW Term – 235
Light. Claws x 5, Cyclone (20),
3 RW Bikes - 230
Apoth (15), plasma x 2(30), sarg, pow sword (15),
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
3 RW Bikes – 205
Meltagun (10), meltagun (10), sarg pow sword (15),
Attack bike w/ multi melta (50)
Predator Annihilator – 135
TLLC (35), heavy bolter sponsons (25), pintle-mounted storm bolter (5)
Devastators – 330
+5 squad members (75)
Lascannon x 1 (35), Plasma cannon x 2 (50)
Razorback - 80
Twin-linked lascannon
I apologize once more for this extremely lengthy message, as I only hope to help you help me. I've emailed you a couple times before but I don't think you received them for whatever reason (I also sent you a message on youtube inquiring about this), but I decided to rewrite the message with some more legwork on my part. I have included my interpretations on a "good" list only to show you where I'm headed with my thoughts, but feel free to break apart my basic list, take units out, and even add in units I completely neglected to mention. Thank you once more, especially for actually getting to the end of a terribly long message. I'm looking forward to this Sunday's broadcast, and I'll hopefully hop on at nine in the morning, to hopefully ask you some more questions if I have them.
PS: I live in Upstate New York, about 30 minutes north of Albany. Know of any good gaming clubs in my area? I'm a bit young (only 16), but I would love to watch some games head on and see some more armies outside of the internet and my basement. I'm not exactly sure where you live, but maybe you can point me in a good direction.
Thanks once more,
Xethik.
Lol, I don't even know where to begin! First of all, gaming in upstate NY. I sadly am no help. I am from Plattsburgh, but the gaming scene up there is nonexistent. Sorry!
Now for your list. I am very little help with Dark Angels. You touched on the thing with bikes already when you referenced my blog post. They are at best a trade off in kill points. You may or may not succeed at killing a tank with a single bike before you lose it. And exposing them for the shot is suicide. So sending them in alone is just not a good choice. Two lone bikes suck. Get them into a single squad and make it a squad of three. But also, they work best in conjunction with tanks that can block LOS. So go with one of your predator lists. Get cheap pred to run blocker for them. Use the pred to block LOS from the rest of the table while you use your bike or bikes to single out a tank. Easier said then done. I wish I knew more about DA to help you.
The list I like the best is your 2 pred list. Forget devs. I always say play the strengths of your dex, and if you want Devs, play generic marines. The str of the DA dex is what you are trying to do. Termies as troops. But the preds add a nice diversity to your list. All troops or all tanks fail. You need a combo of both. So you can use them as rolling cover for your bikes as I mentioned before. Drop the TL Las and go with two 100 point preds.
Mostly though, don't make the mistake that I have seen many DA players do. Don't rely on the speed of the bikes thinking it will save them. It won't. I have seen guys zoom them all over the place, exposing squads with no support, and shaking their heads when they lose them. Like all marine armies, your DA have to be clustered to be strong. They are an elite army and must be played that way. Check Fritz's and my blog archives for how to set up the battlefield in your favor, taking advantage of that mindset. Drop the apoths and put another model on the table.
Play your game with your bikes as throwaway squads. Be prepared to lose them. But dont throw them away, spend them wisely. If you enter a game with the mindset that you are going to lose 6 KP with your bikes and preds, know that they have to earn that many. If you spend them to earn those KP, and also score additional KP with your termies, you are golden. That is the way I play my current list with my three dreads. I know I am giving up 6 KP with them and their pods. Each dread has to score two KP, which they rarely do. I know that goes against what I just said, but in my case, the dreads disrupt the game so much that they allow me to rack up KP with my other squads. Once the pods come down, and he adjusts to the dreads, I am safe to move up and blast away with my bikes. He has to make the decision. Kill a bike, or try to kill a Dread that if he does not kill, will assault the crap out of him. You want to bet most of those high strength shots will go at the dreads...
Use the same mindset. Hmm, not sure if I am making sense. But try your pred list. The tanks you can lose, so get them up into place and use them as cover. They don't have to live, only block LoS. If they manage to take down some troops, even better.
Hope that helps!
Jawaballs
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8 comments:
I'd say if you want to play Devastators, don't:) Play long fangs. They are far better on paper at least.
One thing that struck me was that you might want to look into Land Speeders. They can do interesting things for sure. Not sure what is in the DA codex but vanilla LS goes for 100p a piece for one MM plus Typhoon Launcher. Gives you long range anti-infantery and long range popping vehicles, plus the ability to swoop in from behind cover to MM a vehicle for your termies to mop up.
Just a thought:) What do you think Chris?
(have you played with the captcha? Because it wants me to write vithora, which translated to whitewhore :) Weird world!)
Hey Jawaballs. Thanks for the response.
I would completely consider dropping the apothecary upgrades, but there lies a weakness of the Dark Angel codex. Everything must be half or full strength. 45 points won't buy me too much, and my apothecaries work like Corbulo's ignoring the save works. So, a bit better and a bit worse. Also, I can only take one attack bike for each bike squad, and they are independent and cannot join other squads. It is a pain. But bringing up my army all at once is something I'll have to try. Usually I go at them in waves, and thinking about it, it seems stupid. With the preds moving up, I should have some cover and distraction to work nicely. Hopefully I will be able to pull a Fritz on turn 5 for objectives.
And Flekkzo, Dark Angel Typhoons are a bit odd. But it is 100 points for a MM + Assault Cannon Land Speeder, and I could use those. Plus, they are separate scoring units if take with bike squads, which can be a big bonus. Typhoons for DA are Heavy 1, Blast, Str 5, AP 5. Twin-linked. Also, it is only 75 points for a MM Typhoon Land Speeder, a bit cheaper than the Vanilla Marine codex. Sadly, typhoons lack the long range anti-tank, but they are "better" for infantry (Twin-linked versus 2 shots).
The first thing I notice is that you have all you points tied up in big pieces, stuff you don't want to lose. For example, you only take the minimum amount of bikes so that the loss of one is the loss of a vital bike. If you take a full squad of six bikers, you can run the three with TL Bolters out in front. They take the losses, your good bikes keep on rolling through. Plus, if you get all six you get a LS. Your Ravenwing doesn't have to be the first out of the gate, especially if you're facing a close combat army like Chaos. You can keep them back at your line and deal with trouble spots that pop up. They're a great fast reaction force.
I'd also drop one of the Deathwing squads. The chief benefit of taking Belial is that you can take DW and still have all your elites for the taking. Pick up a veteran squad, that's three Plasma Pistols, plus one each special and heavy weapons. That's a lot of bang. Or get a scout squad. Yes, scouts die easily, but they must be dealt with. That's more firepower NOT attacking the rest of your force. And who's not a little intimidated by a dreadnaught? Easy to kill, sure, but again, they have to divert forces to do so.
If you're going to have a close combat DW squad, drop just one set of LC for TH/SS. The Thunderhammer will allow them to take on vehicles if they have to. Automatic crew shaken if the TH hits (no requirement for penetration OR damage)? Yes, please. I am a fan of the Assault Cannon over the Cyclone, but that drops another LC. Of course 3xLC should mess up just about any unit out there.
Sammael is good, but could another commander be better? Interrogator-Chaplains are not only fearless, but they allow you to field the Sacred Standard which makes anyone within 12" fearless too. Just a thought, but is being fearless that important to a DA army? As long as Belial lives, all DA units have LD 10. Could a librarian be better able to deal with deepstriking units? Hellfire so very random, but it might make people think twice about deepstriking you. Also, take a look at those Command Squads. They are nicely armed and nicely mobile (no heavy weapon to stop and shoot).
Just because they're not Long Fangs doesn't mean Devastators aren't worth taking. If you keep all 10 in a single squad then the enemy is going to have a very tough time trying to silence those guns. That's failed saves before you lose anyone of consequence. I like the load-out you have, great for tank or infantry.
And let us not forget the Tacticals. They don't look all that special, but lots of bolters do inflict losses on any army. Plus, every Tactical squad gets a special and heavy weapon. That makes them all a threat, if you load them out right. A Rhino is okay for moving troops around, a Rhino with Hunter-Killer Missile is a decent backup tank popper.
It's not just about what you have, it's what you do with it. Chaos? Don't charge them, hang back and let them come to you. Line up so that you seem to have a hole they can drive into. Once you funnel them in there, use all the firepower you have to annihilate them. Shooty army? Then, yes, get your DW up there and start tearing them a new one... Roll the rest of your troops up behind in support. Let your enemy determine your tactics, let your tactics drive your enemy to meet you where YOU choose. Does your enemy move away from certain squads? Move towards certain ones? Use that.
I like to pick a table edge and drive a flying wedge up it. Flanking an enemy that expects head-on fights really throws them off their game. They can have my starting zone, I'm done with it when 1st turn starts.
You were probably expecting something more specific, but I'm still playing around with my army list. (I'm pretty sure I'm taking Belial so far, and that's not even a guarantee.) And without a White Dwarf style breakdown if your turn-by-turn I can't be more specific about tactics.
Nice input guys!
Helpful post Rob. There is always so much I want to try out, but only so little to fit in an army list. I am considering dropping the third terminator squad for bike upgrades, but I'm still not entirely sure. I have also thought of taking a TH/SS terminator for the close combat squad, and it is definitely something I'm going to try. The reason I'm running both Belial and Sammael is for the scoring units. I can turbo-boost my bikes back to an objective (hopefully), with terminators being the brute of my force trying to take their objective and hopefully scoring it. Company Veterans were something I was thinking about for a while, too. Taking plasma pistols and a lascannon/multi-melta and putting them in a Razorback, but they don't have the survivability to be the greatest close range tank hunters. If I was to make a more "Greenwing" based army, I probably wouldn't take any bikes and focus on a Razorback force (with special weapons on the tacts and heavy on the veterans) and some terminators to back them up. So many options... Maybe I'll invest in some tacticals and try out the list one day, the closest I have right now are Grey Knights in power armor.
Rob, I think the point of the bikers are mixed. I recommend 3 unless you want to play bike tactics or don't know exactly where they need to be. Fearless makes them unappealing in assaults and 3 or 6 bolters aren't that vile either. For me they are the surgical terminator delivery system. After the terminators are down they become support for them mostly.
I played an 1800 against a chaos army with a vindicator and a laid raider the other day, nerfed the vindicator with an attack bike and nuked the raider with bombs. A pretty balls to the wall tactic really but I dropped 3 chain fists with an apothecary directly behind them.
Belial I don't take for the terminators as troops option unless I bulk up on DW. If I take him it's often to include the terminator apothecary which against regular troops can make shooting games very one sided. Personally I prefer the cyclone claw terminator for my heavy but in a shooting game the cannon is great, but for ripping through enemy squads the claws have it. Generally I have him lead a squad with a cyclone claw and a sword sergeant so they can rip through infantry without having to wait on the fists. Add some chain fists and they can still take on tanks. Not AS well but on a charge that's still a heap of attacks.
Sammel I like, but I use the land speeder version, 14 armor front and sides? it's almost a mini land raider. The interrogator Chaplin is nice too but I don't like the fearless standard, I'd take a +1 attack stand from Belial or even Azreal and pair either with a Chaplin for an extra attack and re-rolls.
I'd agree, don't forget the love of tacticals. They have to pay for their extra weapons still, but a sergeant with a plasma pistol and a power fist can be a cheap thing to send after tanks or big infantry. Just remember combat squads. I made the mistake of having the missile launcher and the fist together once...and only once.
Overall with any list I would have at least 1 DW squad and 1 RW squad. The option to scout move directly toward vital assets and place terminators in their faces ties up points really quick. Belial with an apothecary gives them staying power too. I don't recommend defensive tactics really unless you're unsure of how to deal with a situation, then the above lets you deploy and save some important unit placement until after the enemy is deployed.
Of course if feeling frisky, nothing says HI! like 25 terminators.
Now, being a Dark Angels player myself, I must say that your list is kind of ineffective.
What you need to capitalize on is the fact that we have terminators as troops, and you need to minimalize the fact that we have few models.
This is done by taking less specialized units for the idea of the 'water warrior.'
Each unit is supposed to handle everything.
The exception here are the bikes and attack bikes, being designated AV14-killers.
What your list has, is Sammael. Who is not needed, at all. The bikes you have will not be holding back to capturing objectives, and they will only really be used for tankhunting and contesting.
The jewel in our codex, however, states that our Attack Bikes are scoring. Always. With or without Sammael. Always scoring.
This gives you a tremendous advantage as a Dark Angels player, which means that you can stick your attack bike models in the back, out of Line of Sight then throw everythign into the opponents lines, forcing them to deal with your Angels, and not about taking your objectives.
Also, the apothecary is a must. It will easily make back its points, seing as any unsaved wound that is not instant death can be saved. That makes it gold, considering we have so few models in the first place.
The list I have prepared here is an evolution of my own 1500 list, which I recommend you taking. I started off with a similar list to your 1500 list with sammael and belial, but Sammael is horribly overpriced for a doublewing list in those points.
Anyways, enough rambling by me. Here's the list:
Made in Army Builder.
1 Belial, Master of the Deathwing (HQ) @ 130 Pts
Twin Lightning Claws
#Terminator Armour [0]
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (Troops) @ 270 Pts
Sergeant Terminator; Lightning Claw (x3); Power Fist (x1); Thunder Hammer
(x1); Lightning Claw 2 (x3); Storm Bolter (x2); Apothecary Terminator;
Terminator Standard Bearer
#Terminator Armour [0]
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (Troops) @ 245 Pts
Sergeant Terminator; Lightning Claw (x1); Power Fist (x2); Power Weapon;
Assault Cannon; Lightning Claw 2 (x1); Storm Bolter (x3)
#Terminator Armour [0]
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (Troops) @ 245 Pts
Sergeant Terminator; Lightning Claw (x1); Power Fist (x2); Power Weapon;
Assault Cannon; Lightning Claw 2 (x1); Storm Bolter (x3)
#Terminator Armour [0]
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (Troops) @ 245 Pts
Sergeant Terminator; Lightning Claw (x1); Power Fist (x2); Power Weapon;
Assault Cannon; Lightning Claw 2 (x1); Storm Bolter (x3)
#Terminator Armour [0]
5 Deathwing Terminator Squad (Troops) @ 245 Pts
Sergeant Terminator; Lightning Claw (x1); Power Fist (x2); Power Weapon;
Assault Cannon; Lightning Claw 2 (x1); Storm Bolter (x3)
#Terminator Armour [0]
2 Ravenwing Attack Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 180 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x2); Twin Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak
Grenades
1 Attack Bike @ [50] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Multi-Melta (x1); Twin Bolter (x1); Frag Grenades;
Krak Grenades
1 Ravenwing Sergeant @ [60] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Chainsword; Twin Bolter (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak
Grenades
2 Ravenwing Attack Squadron (Fast Attack) @ 190 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x2); Twin Bolter (x2); Meltagun (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak
Grenades
1 Attack Bike @ [50] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Multi-Melta (x1); Twin Bolter (x1); Frag Grenades;
Krak Grenades
1 Ravenwing Sergeant @ [60] Pts
Bolt Pistol; Chainsword; Twin Bolter (x1); Frag Grenades; Krak
Grenades
Models in Army: 34
Total Army Cost: 1750
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