Well it appears that GW has snuck in a mini update for Witch Hunters and Daemonhunters. If you look in their online store you will find official downloads of their codex books for free... and what is missing? Allies! That is correct Guard. No more cheeze ball inquisitors. No more tarots. No more grey knights in Valkries. No more terminators in Chimeras. No more filling in the balance gaps in your codex with outdated rules. No more BS. Time to stand by yourselves. And not a bit too late with the last round of Hard Boys coming up!
I mean seriously, IG abusing the old allied rules from the DH codex was about as cool as this chick from Baldur's Gate.
That is pretty suck. Good riddance allies.
Have any of you felt the annoyance of playing vs allied armies with their vague rules and often abused combos? Feel free to expand upon it!
Time to stand on your own IG!
Jawaballs
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36 comments:
Hey Jawa, do you think these rules would have affected the outcome of your tournament battle with Dan Internets?
I always wanted to romance that chick in BG II but always either went with the fairy girls since she was easy or the drow...
oh, right allies- thank god! This is huge for hard boyz- with no seize if guard got the +1 on the tarot and then rolls a 6 for first turn that =7 no way to no take first turn from them.
Not this time. He rolled a 5 to go first, modified to 6 with his Tarot. I would have had to get a 6 on the Corbulo reroll in either case. I don't think his inquisitor did any thing more than die.. though I do think he had an inquisitorial retinue with soldiers with melta guns which popped one of my tanks on his alpha strike. However, it will have a big affect on IG in Hard Boys... and make the Corbulo reroll that much more valuable!
Haha, I just finished skimming through them and didn't even pick up on that. I say good riddance. I never liked the douche move of sisters with Vulken He'stan.
Hastala bye bye allies! And not short enough your reign of terror was.
witch hunters page 16 in the Down loadable copy has a side bar about allied forces but is missing the page 25 from the printed codex that has the using witch hunters with other army list
Ok, so does this mean they are not putting out a hardcopy codex for these two armies? If that's correct, then it looks like the way is clear for dark Eldar coming in Sept timeframe? Hmm.
Pavonis, these are old codices just posted online. Expect a DH Codex coming to stores near you soon still.
How official is the PDFs? It's not like they changed anything, they just omitted to include all pages.
I am all for removing the stupid combos, but allies is a cool idea. I hope they keep it but make it fun instead of broken.
I have the feeling that releasing the pdfs wasn't that well planed of a move:(
And yes, am reading Dan Abnett and feeling like playing some mad mean Inquisitors:)
I took a closer look. It looks like they just cut out the table of contents and the actual page that shows the 'allies' info. They didn't remove the fluff section that talks about how their strength is their ability to ally with other codexes. I imagine they were tired of the mystics for IG and Sisters of Battle with Vulkan (and now Blood Angels craziness)
It's good for balancing the IG but I feel like the codex has been hurt. Now you can only play Daemonhunters codex as Grey Knights. The rogue Inquisitor route is totally unplayable without inducted troops. That means Daemonhosts are a useless entry and that is really too bad. Both of these books just got a significant drop in power level without being able to induct troops. They already weren't top 5 armies why would GW drop them to the bottom of the barrel completely. Yes IG codex didn't need allies but is the solution to ruin 2 army books.
Wasnt her name Mealee or something? She was a weak allie comapred to BOO!
I cant imagine how sisters benefited from Vulkan, don't you need Combat Tactics to get his rerolls?
Official email from GW:
Hello,
There have been a number of questions regarding Demonhunters and Witchhunters and allies for the 2010 40K Ard Boyz Finals.
The Finals will use the printed rules that were used in the first two rounds; you will be able to use allies.
Thanks,
Brendan
BOOOOOO!!! Give me a plastic horn to annoy every one with now. Go USA!
Heh, I just came here to point out that the 'Ard Boyz rules specifically allow Inquisitorial allies, but you beat me to it by 11 minutes.
Jawa, everyone at my shop is trying to say that GW didnt but the full codex online but that dose not mean they are takeing allies out of the codex. I know this sounds stupid but they just dont get it. I can't figure out how to get it across to them that they can no longer take allies in our league. Is there anything i can show them that will make them understand?
The offical codex is now the online PDF only. The books are no longer for sale, no longer available, and no longer usable. If the rules are not on the downloadable PDF, they may not use them!
And yah Danny, I knew you would be here with bells on so I had to get that up quick! How do you feel about the PDF being the only official version of the DH codex now? Can guys still use allies in events that do not officially allow the old version like Hard Boys?
I worded that wrong but you get what i mean... :)
Huh, kind of odd to hear that GW is allowing allies in the Ard Boyz, but then again in their rules for this years tournament they specifically said allies would be allowed.
Also, the wording on Vulkan's Chapter Tactics is stupid. While all of the other marines replace Combat Tactics with their own Chapter Tactics, Vulkan removes Combat Tactics and "all thunder hammers in your army count as master-crafted, and all flamers, heavy flamers, meltaguns, and multimeltas count as twin-linked."
Maybe it was intentional wording, but either way it is a bit bothersome.
Lastly, kind of unrelated, but did you get my email Jawaballs?
'Time to stand on your own IG!'
Really?
So ONLY the Imperial Guard exploited the allies rules, NEVER Space Marines? That's basically what you're saying. However wasn't it BoLS who suggested using the Vindicare to kill the lone mark of the Wolfen character (from the SW army to which the assassin and it's attendant Inquisitor were allied to) in the event that the SW were losing in annihilation? Speaking of which, unless you have enough inquisition to stand on its own, you can kiss those assassins good bye as well.
I know I'm the odd one out, but I loved wasting 100 or so points on an inquisitorial circus side show unit. No idea when I last used a mystic, nor does this hurt my IG in anyway (aside from maybe offering up an easy kill point or two).
So they trade combat tactics for Vulkan's abilities right? No CT no Vulkan!
I just looked in the SM codex, under Vulkan Chapter Tactics it says: "If you include He'stan, then all units in your army lose the Combat Tactics special rule. Instead, all T hammers in your army will count as master crafted, and all flamers heavy flame rmelta... count as twin-linked." It is very clear to me. "Instead means that in order to get the TL stuff, you must first have Combat Tactics, just as Shrike does not grant fleet to units without Combat Tactics.
Masta Cheef, I got's no clue what is or isn't posted on BOLS, and I don't care.
And yes, I can honestly say that the only army I have ever seen take allies is IG. I have never played against a marine player with DH allies. Thats a lot of players seeing as how 80% of who I play against is marines... and just about every time I play IG they have allies...
Though I have been tempted to do it myself for the tarot.
IG are the ones who use allies to fill the gaping holes that were intended to balance them.
And I'm saying just what I wrote. No need to get all dramatic in some little "ahh ha, I got you Mr. Bell of Lost Souls writer" moment.
From a (very lame) Rules As Written perspective, it simply says that you remove Combat Tactics and all of these weapons count as this and that, never saying the model had to have combat tactics as a special rule.It would be assumed that instead of having combat tactics, the units that had combat tactics have twin-linked/master crafted. It is kind of bogus, but I've heard it argued. Obviously wasn't intended.
Put otherwise:
Vulkan removes Combat Tactics from all units that have it. Instead -the army-(that being key) gains the specified bonuses. The way it is written, it doesn't matter if the unit had Combat Tactics or not. For example, Dreadnoughts do not have Combat Tactics, but it is the intent of his rule to give them Twin Linked weaponry.
If you compare to other unique Characters, many make the exchange as it specifies the word "exchange" in the description. But this word is left out of Vulkan's rule and makes the change army wide.
Ahh, I see it, all the douche bags choose to ignore the word Instead because the "Instead of what" was in the sentence before. God I hate that shit. Some day, I will run a tournament, and I pity the fool that tries them apples.
I know. I don't get why people argue things when it is obvious what is intended. But people will continue because they can and that is half the fun for them. The one argument that allows the Sisters to do this is how Dreadnoughts should (and are) affected by this, so why aren't Sisters of Battle?
Also, not sure if you saw it last time, but did you get my email about how to fix the "Bandwidth Exceeded" error for your images?
"And yah Danny, I knew you would be here with bells on so I had to get that up quick! How do you feel about the PDF being the only official version of the DH codex now? Can guys still use allies in events that do not officially allow the old version like Hard Boys?"
If this omission of the allies rules was intentional then I would certainly say that the online PDF, being newer and updated, definitely takes precedence and that allies are no more.
It should be noted that there are several people claiming to have received responses from GW confirming that the deletion of the rules was actually a mistake. This would be consistent with the fact that several of the different international GW sites saw versions of the DH codex with the allies rules intact.
Something seems very odd, however. There was no real reason of just sticking that image in the Codex: Daemonhunters over the rules for allies in a DH army. It just seems odd. I don't doubt that it was a mistake, but there just seems to be a bit more to it. Hell, I'm probably just reading into it too much.
Allies in IG/SM armies were sometimes silly! Including a squad or GK terminators in an IG army, or a unit of sisters in a SM army were fine, and characterful. I hate the poeple who abused the Vulkan build using sisters of battle. It makes people who use Salamanders look cheesy! I've been playing Salamanders, since they had there own box of tactical marines ;)
Lol, and it sounds like Warmachines and the people who play it are better for having you Rida. Thanks for adding something valuable to the post! You sound like just the sort of ass-hole who would try to use Descent of Angels on a deep striking Land Raider. I have to say that you don't sound very intelligent at all. And it is doubtful that you figured out any thing on your own. In fact I have a good idea that you are pretty lucky that dudes like me exist or else you would probably be getting whooped up and down the table, and probably still are despite our existence.
No, you don't sound intelligent. You sound like an eighth grader resorting to name calling. Thats all. Here's to you hating 8th grade troll. I salute you! Now go say hateful things to your dog, or kill yourself, or play Warmachines. Please.
Unfortunately, the INET FAQ confers Vulkan's ability to the whole army. My FLGS doesn't use the INET FAQ, only official GW FAQ's and Errata. I am with ya, I believe the RAI is that you exchange the CT to gain this ability like every other HQ in the SM codex.
INET Excerpt:
SM.93A.01 – Q: Does Vulkan’s Chapter Tactics benefit weaponry of allied units included in the army (such as allied Sisters of Battle flamers, for example)?
A: Yes, if the weapon is part of his army, including inquisitorial allies, then it benefits from his Chapter Tactics special rule [RAW].
Yah, that FAQ is based in part on Rules as Written, which I support in many cases. But at some point we need to come to realize that RAW needs to take a back seat to Rules as Intended. I know I will take flame from any number of dudes who say I don't do that myself, but in this example, I believe it can be universally accepted that this is how it works. And sorry, Dreadnoughts do not have Combat Tactics, so they do not benefit from the rule. Neither should speeders and tanks. It is a rule intended for models that have the Combat Tactics ability. Not Land Raiders, Dreadnoughts or Sisters of Battle.
Ok i know this is not what you want Jawaballs, but would you ever use decent of angels on a deep striking landraider.
It sounds super cheese and I (being made of jack cheese) like it.
:)
Aside from the fact that you cant? Assault Squads only have Descent of Angels written in their entry because they come with jump packs. It is the JP that gives them DoA. Remove the JP, remove the rule. Sure, they don't spell that out, which is why I saw that complete douche cake trying to do it at Hard Boys, but every where else in the book, any mention of using the rule only applies to models using Jump Packs. Further, It is not the squad that is arriving by Deep Strike. It is the Land Raider. The Squad is catching a ride and at the complete whim of fate. If the raider scatters onto impassible terrain, does the squad get a chance to survive? No, if the raider dies, so does the squad. Also, it is a matter of precedent. Are there any units that grant their special rule to their transport? How bout Plague Marines granting their Rhino Feel No Pain? Harlequins granting a Falcon Grav Tank their shrouding? Or Grey Knights granting it to a Land Raider for that matter? As far as I know, in order for a transport to take advantage of a squads special rule, it also has to have it... like Scout Speeders. Put scouts in a Storm Raven, and do you think it gets to infiltrate and scout move? No and No.
Believe me, I love cheeze and my 3 Death Co. Furioso venerable dread list smacked of it. But it was legal and abused no rules quirks or slips. But trying to DS a LR with DoA is just disrespectful to your opponent. You might as well save the trouble and just spit in his face and tell him his painting sucks.
In the battle report from White Dwarf 361 Matt Ward, the guy who wrote the codex, used Hestan to give his speeders TL Multimeltas. So I don't think it's a rule slip, I think it's exactly as intended.
Hesten upgrades the armoury, not the tactics of an individual squad.
Now DoA on a Land Raider is just silly. I can't even figure out why someone would think that the rule would apply to a dedicated transport.... is there some precedent in the rules for that? There's nothing at all in the transports section of the rulebook that suggests that a transport can gain a special ability from a unit inside. Otherwise you end up with Rhinos with fleet when Meph hops in!
Okay, I just played a game against my brother and he used grey knights with sisters and blood angels. 1.) is that even possible? 2.) he used a sanguinary priest inside a land raider to apply furious charge to his grand master and grey knight terminators to charge abbaddon and my possessed. Whilst the old dumbass rule about nemesis force weapons removing the model and not conferring instant death, the moment i failed 1 save from abbaddon he died regardless of having eternal warrior. How the hell can chaos lists beat allied sisters with grey knights, blood angels, and storm ravens?!
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