For the love of Meta: If you have to do Dark Eldar MSU Raider-spam...here it is


Hey all Kevin here again chiming in about those sadistic space pirates that I am into right now also known as Dark Eldar. Now most people play or at least have played a MEQ at some point in their hobby career. There is a trend in the meta these days to take what people say is good on the Internet and bring it to their own army. now giving and asking advice is not a bad thing. Also bringing a new concept in the game to you're plastic crack is a good thing....Anyway before I trail off let me get to the point. MSU Razorspam is a good concept with a lot of good lists. It is a proven effective concept and this has translated into many tournament wins for many a player. When Dark Eldar came out a lot of people tried to take this concept a little too far with a sole focus on putting as many Raiders on the field as possible with a blind eye to everything else in the book...most of these lists have turned out to do poorly on the competitive level so a sink in popularity for the army ensued. So first off for those that have read my posts before and know the list I run it is a mech list. I preach that mech is the way for DE to play competitively but there is a distinct difference between Mech DE and MSU Raider Spam. Mech lists only ever run a few Raiders that are fully optimized. The Raider spam you ee a lot of people preaching is a MSU Wrack build utilizing the cheap cost and minimum unit size wracks have in order to put out as many Raiders as possible. The problem with these lists is that they run bare bones raiders that when they are destroyed you have a useless small Wrack unit inside. If you roll up kill points you might as well concede. Im trying to design a list that utilizes the advantages of a MSU build trying to put out as many Vehicles as possible while still utilizing at least a semi-effective unit inside of these Raiders. The first thing we have to replace is the troops selections for our army. Small, ineffective 3 model Wrack units are out. Since the point is putting out an effective Raider build Hellions are also out. This leaves us with Wyches and Warriors. Now Wyches in small enough units to be considered MSU are too ineffective for what their purpose is. They also dont give us any threat potential in the list. This leaves us with warriors. To get the most effective build out of a small warrior unit we need to add in a blaster (I know, very typical). Right now with 5 Warriors with a blaster it will cost us a decent 60 points. Also since we can move 12" in a Raider and shoot two darklight weapons at two different targets we just optimized the Raider unit. Now for the Raiders themselves I am a preacher of the Night shields/flickerfield mandatory build. On paper these do not seem so good but the Dice Gods are fickle and the actual battlefield experience I have had points to these being worthy expenses with the way it nerfs melta/rapid fire weapons as well as having at least a save for your vehicles always. For the ability to use the Kamakaze Raider tactic, which is always fun, I like to add, for only 10 points, a shock prow and advanced aethersails. FYI the Kamikaze Raider tactic is using the Raider to Ram an enemy vehicle at 24+" range so that you can get off a S10 no cover saves allowed attack at an enemy vehicle that you could possibley pull off unscathed due to the flickerfield. Still its nice to use this effectively 90 point model to take down 200-250 point models....With the Raider and warriors each unit costs a good solid 150 points....lets take 6 of these and get up to 900 points with 6 Raiders and 30 footsloggers and 12 different target able darklight shots....not that bad of numbers... So next up for an effective Vehicle spam list for DE has to be elites....now I know these are not Raiders but its too useful a unit to ignore...Trueborn in a Venom...First of all since we have a lot of anti-mech in the list already lets focus on some anti-infantry/horde ability. So the ever more popular x4 Blaster unit that people spam needs to be only used once to allow some room....it is also very expensive coming in at 108 points for the four blaster models and 75 points for the Venom with a Night shield and the bonus splinter cannon....The other two slots should be filled up with x5 Trueborn in a similar venom each with 2 splinter cannons and 3 shardcarbines. The Trueborn themselves only cost 95 points with a signifigant ammount of fire power. So our list so far looks like this.


Troops

  1. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  2. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  3. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  4. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  5. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  6. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150


Elites


  1. x4 Trueborn, x4 Blasters, Venom, Nigh Shields, splinter cannon- 183
  2. x5 Trueborn, x2 Splinter cannons, x3 sharcarbines, venom, splinter cannon, N shields-170
  3. x5 Trueborn, x2 Splinter cannons, x3 sharcarbines, venom, splinter cannon, N shields-170


Total- 1423




So with a half decent HQ you could play this list at 1500....and thats a lot at that level. But a good DE list wouldn't be without Ravagers so since the list calls for Mech lets have 3 of those with Night Shields and a Flickerfield at 125 points a piece....Yet since most of the list can deal with vehicles lets modify one of them to have x3 Disintigrater Cannons, for free might I add, for 9 S5 AP2! shots.....this thing is a Terminators horrible nightmare and a monsterous creatures bane.....This brings us up to1898 in points and we are only missing one key component....an HQ


So with a lack of points available in a 2000 point list for one of the special characters this leaves us with either an archon or a Haemonculus. Now neither of these will have any real game impact and probably sould just chill with the trueborn to be in the best spot for effectiveness.....We can take 2 bare bones haemonculi for 100 points in one slot....or an archon with a blaster and a clonefield for some cobat punch in one of the trueborn units since they will be effectivley out front first.....A good army will want FNP on both of the shooty trueborn units so a cool Archon is gonna get left out....Heres the list

total....1998 (A fine year I might add...)

HQ

  1. x2 Haemonculi- 100

Troops

  1. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  2. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  3. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  4. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  5. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150
  6. x5 Warriors, Blaster, Raider, N shields, flickerfield, shock prow and adv. aethersails- 150


Elites

  1. x4 Trueborn, x4 Blasters, Venom, Nigh Shields, splinter cannon- 183
  2. x5 Trueborn, x2 Splinter cannons, x3 sharcarbines, venom, splinter cannon, N shields-170
  3. x5 Trueborn, x2 Splinter cannons, x3 sharcarbines, venom, splinter cannon, N shields-170

Heavy Support

  1. Ravager, N Shields, Flickerfield -125
  2. Ravager, N Shields, Flickerfield -125
  3. Ravager, N Shields, Flickerfield, x3 Disintigrater cannons- 125


So in total we get 12 vehicles, 22 darklight weapons, 46 foot sloggers, and a whole mess of AP-2 and anti-infantry capability....This list is decent and would be very effective while not saxrificing a lot of the effective choices in the book.....I am not a fan of it necessarilly since it lacks a great assault threat like I believe all good DE lists need but I can respect a list like this and would run it due to its ability to just wreck armies via shooting.... so more on this later...


24 comments:

eathos said...

very close to the army I run at 1750 but I squeeze in 2 courts as well for that combat punch you need some times. just trim the fat and see how many points become free.

Tordeck said...

I disagree with your assessment of what MSU DE should look like.

Having been playing DE for awhile now I can say that I feel the best set up is to have the ride do one thing while the riders do another.

So if you want to go the MSU route with DE it should look something like

Heavy - 345
3 Ravagers w/ flickerfields (1 can have disintegratiors)

Troops - 750
5 warriors w/ blaster
Venom w/ extra splinter cannon
x 6

Elites - 480
5 Trueborn w/ 4 blasters
Venom w/ extra cannon
x 2

5 Incubi
Raider w/ Nightshields, Flickerfield

HQ - 275
2 Haemonculus w/ Agoniser

Archon w/ Agoniser, Clone Field, Phantasm Grenade Launcher, Combat Drugs

1850 on the dot.

to bring it to 2000

- 1 Haemonculus
- 1 warrior unit

Fast - 312
2 x 6 reavers w/ 2 heat lance

+ 1 Incubi
Switch Archon's Clone Field to Shadow Field

1999 total

Cody J said...

Ummm... You cant move your Raider and shot out of it with your Warriors... I wish this was the case...

It'd be nice if people are posting blogs and saying that they are experts would actually read the rules... You can only move 6'' to shoot from inside the Raider... Read the rules dude

Cody J said...

Cant move 12'' can only move 6'' to fire the Blaster from the Raider

Kevinmcd28 said...

Yeah but u can
Move 6" and fire the blaster hence the blaster... And the venom spam is good but this is raider spam not may mech

Cody J said...

No but you cant... Your argument makes no sense

Tordeck said...

While yes you did call it Raider spam, you also called it MSU DE and the only really effective way to run MSU DE is how I've posted it up.

And yes if you move the raider/venom 6" you can still fire out of it.

Cody J said...

"Also since we can move 12" in a Raider and shoot two darklight weapons at two different targets we just optimized the Raider unit."

A quote from above... Cannot move 12'' and fire the Blaster

tzeentchling said...

That's 120 points wrapped up in Night Shields. I really don't think that that's worth it, especially since the benefit of Night Shields is only a medium-long range, and even then lots of things have range. Drop the Nightshields on everything save the Ravagers, perhaps, take out the 60 more points on the shock prows and aethersails, and quite frankly this is a 1850 list - decent at that, but still not particularly scary.

tzeentchling said...

Also, please break down that giant wall of text into paragraphs. Makes it easier to read.

Tordeck said...

NS should never be on a Ravager

Dark Lance = 36"

Lascannon
Missile Launcher
Autocannon
Etc = 48"

48" - 6" = 42"

If your in range to fire your lance then so is anything that can do damage effectively on a Ravager.

NS on raiders full of wyches or Incubi makes sense as now you'll negate Rapid Fire and Melta rules.

General Oadius said...

ok boys...I'll tell you how a good DE list works. My friends are playing DE and they both have crazy good lists.. One of the(who is winning a lot more)has a mix of raiders and venoms that could definetly be called a meta mech list. it goes like this

archon with 2+ invul, phantasm grenade launcher, agoniser, haywire grenade

Haemonculous x 2 or 3 usually with a liquifier gun and an agonizer or venom blade(works pretty good with just venom blade btw)

1 wrack unit of 4 or 5 on venom with extra splinter canon and 5+ saves possible grisly tropies

2 squads of 9 wyches with shardnet impaler and haywire grenades. hekatrix has phantasm grenade launcher, haywire grenades and agoniser(sometimes blast pistol). They wyches ride a raider with a lance and 5+ and aether sails

incubi with moderate adds riding a venom or raider with Archon. this one would have 5+, grisly trophies, aether sails and maybe a shock prow.

trueborn with 4 blasters, phantasm grenade launcher, agoniser on a venom with extra splinter canon, aether sails and 5+

2 ravagers with lances

General Oadius said...

Oh I forgot the Razorwing fighter with 5+!

General Oadius said...

He reserves everything. Wracks, ravagers and fighter is preferred for first reserves. Wracks run flat out for 4+ and to lure you away from heavies. Ravager and fighter shoot. usually he runs in from reserve, flat out for 4+ and to block another unit that he really wants to assault you with(who probably went flat out too. Using Aethersails generally gets you around 30" of movement with the 4+ and that is close enough with the next move up 12" + deployment, fleet and charge.

Archon tears through anything at initiative 7(even charging through cover) WS8 with like 6 or 7 attacks and wounding on 4+ with a PW. The Incubi are just there to finish up whatever is left over.

The wyches are an insane troop for the point cost...Initiative 6!! haywire grenades, defensive grenades + the shardnet impaler and a 4+ invul in CC...at 12 or 13 points a model that makes the Grey Knights jealous. make sure you have a phantasm grenade launcher and an agoniser and the wyches are as dynamic as any unit in the game. Give them a FNP power from pain token on the Haemonculous and they are just plain fantastic. Do not underestimate this unit.

General Oadius said...

oh and the 4 trueborn are his fire dragon, melta skimmer type thing with 4 blasters. they are super mean. that brings the lance total to around 14. For those armies foolish enough to field a Land Raider...I feel SOOO SORRY FOR YOU.

Rathstar said...

I don't think the 90 pt raiders are.a.good use of points. I think the lists in the comments which used basic raiders is better.

Rathstar

PS. You probably lost a few people with the "basic" rules mistake (NB: if a raider moves 12" nobody embarked and shoot).

Pastafarion said...

How bout we keep it all respectful eh? :D its just a game and I'm seein a bit of hate and dissing over army lists.

I have nothing to say about the article just want to remind everyone to keep it low-key. Instead of saying "Your wrong", try "I have a different take on it" because believe it or not, everyone wins different ways, with different army lists. Hell, I tried an aggressive move-towards-the-enemy Tau list where I rapid fired my firewarriors into Grey knights and it worked. Nothing here is wrong or right..... just different concepts and levels of efficiency.

(steps off soapbox)

General Oadius said...

I personally don't see the point value in shock prows..nor the 6" range negating upgrade. Not to beat a dead horse but if you are paying the points to keep a melta from getting an additional dice for AP then you are missing the fact that you are armor 10 or 11 and he is STR8...he doesn't really need the other dice. You just need to roll your 4+ flat out or 5+ invulnerable save. The fact that you may be opened topped and he is definetely AP1 just reinforces my point numerically.

****DISCLAIMER****
I'm only stating my opinion as a Blood Angel general. I have never stated or intended that "you are wrong". I merely wish for you to crush them(your Dark Eldar opponents) using this information. Please try to be a little more thick skinned. If you are up on the soapbox and get razed for missing a rule. Well that's the price of fame and you probably won't forget that rule from now on. SO SUCK IT UP.

ShotDownMind said...

Shock prows are worthless. Playtest FTW.

ShotDownMind said...

Raider spam/dark lance spam isent that good.

Its not using all the strengths of the codex. Other spam lists are better because they are stickier, have meaner troops that dont die to shooting or close combat (all things that kabal warriors and even trueborn hate.)

Jawaballs said...

Wow you guys were brutal! I think Kevin can walk away from this with a bit of experience in writing his posts. I certainly like that he is talking about Dark Eldar which is why I brought him on board, to add something different.

Pastafarion and General are both right on this. While I prefer to have the comments on this blog remain productive and positive, I still fully expect to get blasted if I mess up. So blast away, just do it with tact. It is really easy to lay into some one with little thought to what you are saying.

BOLS is a prime example of that. Most of the time comments over there are unnecessary and hateful at best and flat out offensive and nasty seems to be the rule of thumb. It is much harder to make your point about how your opinion differs with a writers without at the same time tearing him down. Especially when he makes a mistake.

And yes, thick skin is a must, but I didn't see Kevin respond poorly to these comments. :)

ShotDownMind said...

There are things that are wrong and right because it is easy to tell in a competitive or non-competitive format if something works or doesnt. Its actually easy to figure that out.

Agressive firewarriors work sometimes but rarely, so we CAN determine if they are good, or "not good" in a general sense, and if those tactics are good, or "not good" or reliable or "not reliable" in a similar manner.

Raider/lance spam in the exact same context is fairly weak and "not good" and "not reliable" vs the other rock, paper, and scissor armies out there. If you are hooked on str 8 spam to win games, then play space wolves, or try out new GK. DE codex has a whole different set of tools then IG or SW to win games reliably in all sorts of settings.

use the strenghts luke... fast skimmers.... haywire grenades... high iniatitive agonizers....

not heat lances, the codex has better uses for your points if you want to win.

General Oadius said...

I was just commenting on Pastafarion's post. I think Kevin did fine.

General Oadius said...

In fact I was wrong about that rule forever...I just feel very confident on my assessments of DE strength's and weaknesses. For God's sake... my primary practice opponent is SDM(shot down mind). I guarantee you he is in the 99th percentile of DE generals in the US.

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