This is the tentative list I will be bringing to The Nova.
The Venerable Jawaballs Standard Bearer
Astrorath: I know it's spelled wrong, I like calling him Astro.
Sanguinary Priest with JP and PW and melta bomb
Sanguinary Priest with JP, PW and Melta Bomb
Assault Squad x10
Melta x2
PW
Melta Bomb
Assault Squad x10
Melta x2
PW
Assault Squad x10
Melta x2
PW
Asssault Squad x10
Melta x2
PW
Assault Squad x10
Melta x2
PF
Assault Squad x5
PF
Honor Guard x5
PW x2
JPs
Vanguard Vets x6
PF x1
PW x3
Infernus Pistol x1
64 Pissed off, fast moving Blood Angels!
Why? Well, first of all I wanted to get back to my roots. When I first got into 40k I fell in love with my Black Templars assault squad. When the BA PDF came out, and I saw they had assault marines as troops, it was a done deal. I had to have them. My first Blood Angels army was an all assault marine force supported by a couple of Baal Preds and a Vindicator. It was a massive fail though. First of all, the PDF was lacking certain things I needed, like Descent of Angels and Vanguard Vets and most importantly Feel No Pain.
But again why?
Well, as I see the game shift, I see the GKs forcing mech armies off the table. It is not because Psy Cannons and Psy Bolts are all that much better at killing tanks, it is because these options give a Space Marine army the one thing they have never really had, lots and lots of high strength fire power. The fact that it is medium range matters not when they can shrug off shakens and stuns. Previously this sort of shooty strength was a distinction left to the Eldar and Tau and their obvious limitations.
My one and only encounter with the GKs thus far left me convinced that now is the time to strike with a Blood Angels assault army. One thing I learned was that GKs are vulnerable to assault. Most guys are not spending the points on Halbreds, and when confronted with assigning wounds to their precious Psy cannons, or the guys without that are holding force weapons, they will likely let the FW take the save. When I charged small GK squads with my small assault squads, without power weapons no less, twice they came out victorious.
30 or so Grey Knights facing 68 Blood Angels bristling with power weapons and feel no pain will be hard pressed to survive.
But Jawa, what about the other armies? Well, I attribute some of my tournament success with my prep. Based on the trends, I show up with armies designed to beat the armies that I think I will likely face. To date it has been Space Marine and IG. My armies own Space Marine armies (For the most part), and depending on the favor of the gods, can table IG. But I think that the new GK lists are a bigger threat. They are going to force some of those IG lists off the table in the early rounds, leaving me less likely to face them.
But is this army weak vs the standard guard net list? I don't think so! Descent of Angels is a powerful ability. This many melta guns landing in close proximity to all those melta vets and medusas will deal some serious damage. If I use the angles and cover well, I can minimize return plasma fire and survive his next round of shooting with less than half losses. 30 marines in the back ranks of a guard army is a bad bad thing for guard, especially if I managed to demech them when I landed. Yes there is a little luck involved, but I think I should do well.
Space Marines? I think I will do just as well as I always have. You never know.
Dark Eldar? Bring on those paper boats.
Orks? I want a piece of you Dash!
My biggest fear? Tau. The fire power they can put down is amazing, and they can slow me down on the assault allowing them to unleash 2 or 3 full rounds of shooting. I don't think I can survive that. But since Shatter Hands is not playing and he constitutes 33 percent of the Tau players in the world, I think I will be ok.
What are the keys to this list? Astro. I need this army to be fearless and him giving the increased chance at Red Thirst is key. I cant having these big squads running away! I considered Dante and Mephiston, but Meph is vulnerable to stupid force weapons, and Dante, while awesome, just does not do as much for the army as Astro does.
The Vanguard Vets are the second key. Heroic Intervention will pull my butt out of the fryer quite a lot. The biggest problem my first assault army had was those guys who set up as far away from me as they could with nasty shooty stuff, like Oblits. I could not get to them! The vanguard will be able to get to those Broadsides, and the IG tanks that hurt like hell.
What are my options?
Well I threw in that 6th troops choice who will come in and hold objetives. I considered using a scouts squad with Homing Beacon instead, but that would mean starting them on the table and suffering at least two full rounds of shooting. I don't think camo cloaks will save them. Scout bikers were an option but they cant take a homing beacon! Plus I have never used them and I have to use what I know. I have two months til Nova and need to commit. It's too late to start climbing that learning curve!
I think aside from minor war gear options, I only have two choices:
First, trying to get in a second VV squad. Dropping the first down to 5 and a couple of power weapons could allow me to turn that 6th troops squad into a VV squad. Two deep heroic interventions could effectively eliminate some armies completely. Dameon Green's Space Marine list for example with 3 thunderfire cannons would see it's effectiveness greatly reduced.
Second, more priests is a good thing. I only have two, one attached to a small squad. More priests would give me a wider FNP area and allow me to spread out more if I need to. Dropping that troops choice will allow me two more priests.
Third? Another chaplain. Litanies of Hate is huge.
Of course, I need to play test this, then build and paint them all. I am starting from scratch more or less!
What do you guys think?
EDIT: Because I made a points error I had to already drop that 6th troops squad. Forget that part. I added a 2nd priest.
EDIT EDIT: Rather than continually updating the list in the post, look for updates and corrections down in the comments.
Jawaballs
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63 comments:
Hmm. There is surely a lot of jumpy death there, a heck of a lot of melta, and PWs out the exhaust port. I think if you're going to go all-jump, go with the extra VV squad.
Don't you want a Librarian, though? at least for the anti-psyker ability? I guess if you're already spamming them with assult it won't matter much, will it? Hmm.
Well, as I thought, people went anti-mech when they saw the fast tanks, and now we have to counter with anti-infantry.
So, good luck!
If this is a 2000 point list, my math says you're 40 points over - roughly the cost of the jump packs on the Vanguard Vets that you didn't list as taking?
Otherwise, I like your thinking.
I found the mistake. I forgot to give the HG the JPs in Army Builder. Now I have to drop the extra RAS and go with a priest!
I will edit the post.
There, I added a second priest, gave them both melta bombs and gave one of the Sgts melta bombs.
Do you think its ok if replace the 5 men assault squad with 1 Librarian? For the psychic hood.
I REALLY suggest a third priest, honest to god.
Also, Id consider dropping the honor guard in favour of a 10 man Vanguard squad with 4 power fists. Honestly, they hurt...everything!
Librarian hoods are about a 50/50 chance at defense, that always seems to fail at the worst time. Plus I don't plan on letting psykers live long enough to use their filthy powers.
Now, Killswitch makes a good point, going 10 Vanguard instead of the HG. I will have to look at the points!
Ok, so dropping the HG and adjusting some points gets me a full squad of 10 VV and a third priest with PW. I need to get some fists into that Vet squad though.
The only thing I'd consider taking more of for you are fists instead of power weapons. Those same grey knights are going to have a lot of dreadnoughts, and sometimes a lot of venerable dreadnoughts, and the squads w/out fists can't risk getting close unless the dreads are dead. Smart players will keep the dreads in a position that prevents you easily getting meltas on them without leaving your pants down, and forces you within their charge range to get meltas/charges on the knights.
You have so many attacks, and power weapons galore in the priests and astro* that you really (I feel) could use fists across your ASM ... but that's just me.
I like it, actually; it's pretty straighforward but will be pretty darned effective, and FNP effectively discourages the torrent capabilities that psyback spamming GK and/or Venom spamming Dark Eldar can really bring down on you.
Now the list is at 2150, but I think that you forgot to remove an entry, because it's 70 models and you're listing 64 at the bottom.
Not sure that Meltabombs are the way to go here. You've got more than enough Melta to crack whatever tanks you encounter. The points you're spending on Meltabombs could be better spent on another power weapon for your Vanguards. You might want to change that Infernus pistol for another power weapon, as well. They can't shoot the turn they come in if they use Heroic Intervention, and you don't really want them relying on shooting after that.
Here's the tweaks I'd make:
Astorath
Sanguinary Priest, JP, PW
Sanguinary Priest, JP, PW
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Honor Guard x5, PW x3, Meltabombs, JPs
Vanguard Vets x5, PF x1, PW x3
That gives you 10 meltaguns, 4 power fists, three FNP bubbles, and 63 models.
Oh I forgot to remove that 6th squad from the list. Rather than continuously editing the post, here is the list as it stands with some great input. Thanks Brandt! See my abbreviation chart for definitions.
Astro
x5 RAS:
10 men each
1 PF each
2 melta each
3x priests with PW and JP
VVet squad x9
x2 pf
x2 pw
x1 melta bomb
jump packs
The only place I could make it work was dropping a vet. Not a big deal though, you cant combat squad and deep strike them any way, and they will probably be using Heroic Intervention most games.
Paul nice input too. The list you put in is very close to the one I just put in my last comment. Only it gives me a bigger blob of assaulting Vets coming out of deep strike!
I have been using DOA since the new BA book came out and its definitely my favorite play style for the boys in red, the list looks very nice but i cant help but think that astaroth just isnt worth it purely for a chance at more fearless units, considering that my angels jump squads have only run like once.
Combine that with the fact that from time to time running from battle is not a bad thing since you cant be cut down. Reading your comments I can see you dont fancy the librarian for the hood as its only 50% most of the time but I still find them to be by far the best HQ for things like shield and rage on jump squads.
Not being in a nice little box and area terrain being quite dangerous to jump guys can sometimes mean limited cover, you never know when a 5+ can come in handy but more so however is rage, re-roll hits for the entire assault squad has turned the tide of games for me many times.
Best of luck in the tournament anyway!
Yeah! I love Astro, so glad to see someone using him. I like the pure Jumper list it really plays to the Decent of Angels special and should be fun. I will rooting for you in the tournament.
There's only 1 Astro :)
http://www.sitcomsonline.com/photopost/data/2258/JASTRO3.JPEG
Here are my 3 cents concerning the 9-man Vanguards vs. the Honour Guard:
1) Even with the 1d6 scatter, 9 guys is a lot dicier to bring in exactly where you need them without mishaping than 5 would be. Granted, you're not likely to be out of range if you scatter away from your target, but you're more likely to be unable to deploy outside of 1".
2) Dropping the HG and adding a priest means you're adding an assault target. The kill points are the same with both lists, but without the HG, you're losing the benefit of a FNP bubble that can't be targeted in close combat.
3) That squad is almost 400 points. Previously, you had everything broken down into 220-250 point chunks, which meant that losing any one of them wasn't a big deal. If you lose a 9-man vet squad due to mishap or other unpredictability, it's going to hurt a lot more than losing the 5-man squad would. This list is really built for balance and expandability. It just seems out of character for the rest of it.
That being said, if you could work in two 5-man vet squads, each with a power fist and power weapon, you wouldn't be putting all of your eggs in one proverbial basked and getting all of the punch that you're looking for. Maybe even drop an Assault Squad - you'd still have 4-8 scoring units:
Astorath
Sanguinary Priest, JP, PW
Sanguinary Priest, JP, PW
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PW
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PW
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Assault Squad x10, Melta x2, PF
Honor Guard x5, PW x3, JPs
Vanguard Vets x5, PF x1, PW x2
Vanguard Vets x5, PF x1, PW x2
Paul, all great points. Especially with going two 5 man VV squads vs one big one. From this point, we have the list worked out except for some fine points, now I need to get in some practice! I will try out the librarian and some other options too. But I'm not too worried about psychic powers. The one big thing that I need is the Vets getting Furious Charge, and I cannot count on that coming from a priest. Cant count on red thirst either, but Astro gives it a better chance!
I disagree about the libby. he adds a nice bonus to your army regardless of what the hater say. if there is one thing i've learned from your blog jawa its not to rely on 'chance' bonuses for tourneys. Rastro (jetsons reference) does not seem as useful as a libby would. you can grab a hood, (negating 50% of GK's shenanigans is a good thing no?) and a force weapon for dealing with those vulnerable ICs and MCs. and your choice of those nice spells of your own.
Thanks Cornelius, great points and I need to explore what works better. Fajhan, you don't have to play the HQ with the HG. They can be their own separate unit. Taking one of the HQs simply unlocks them. Unless I am mistaken! I will also be trying out Dante. I love his -1 "sorry sucka" special rule.
Yeah, there's nothing in the codex that says the Honour Guard needs to run with your HQ. They're a separate unit free to do whatever they want.
A flamer or two might not be a bad idea. If you drop a single Melta on the PF assault squads, you could drop those points into upgrading one of the Honour Guard's power weapons to a power fist.
As for the Librarian, I'd agree if you had mech to keep him safe. Otherwise, he's target #1 with no invulnerable save, regardless of who you're playing against. Granted, I've used Libbies to great effect against GKs, but always sporting Terminator Armour and a Storm Shield.
A guy at my local runs this list pretty much spot on. He doesn't take Astorath. He manages well, but IMO I don't think this list will do well at a tournament. Just my $.02
I'm a big fan of a shooty honor guard with storm shields. Add a single fist and load up on melta guns. They can tie up PW or dreads and survive a lot of fire. They can be pricey if you give up 4 storm shields, so dropping down to 2 shields could free up points. You are already stretching pts as it is, so not sure where it would fit, but after many games of blood angels, it's great to have some invul saves.
Oh, meant to mention, I like to run Dante with this squad as he balances out the lack of CC punch and he can hit and run allowing more melta shots if needed.
I have played pure DOA and DOA with devastators. My 2 pence worth (cause I'm based in the UK!)
The problem with pure DOA is dealing with tough units - terminators, Tyranid MCs, Wraithlord etc. The only torrent you have is in close combat. So while you can torrent down 5 TH/SS terminators, you have to do it with 2 assault squads assaulting that one squad. That's OK, but the ass squads tend to get bogged down. My experience is that they need to kill things quick, so they can move onto the next victim. If they are in the combat next turn then they don't get the furious charge buffs. If the unit is big, or tough, then they can't finish them off quickly enough. One option to do this with Sanquinary Guard. Use them as "finishers" i.e assault first with regular assault squad and then finish off the combat with the guard. Fine in theory but I could never get this to work in a game.
VV are great. DofA makes them so much better than vanilla marine VV. In all the games I've played I think I've misshaped with them once, and missed charge range once.
If you are going with 10 VV, try taking them in one big squad. As I understand the new(ish) FAQ you hold the whole squad in reserve and roll for it to come in as one squad. When it comes in you can then combat squad it and DS 2 combat squads. When you do this you can choose which combat squad gets which guys- want to hit something big and tough in the backfield - put the 2 power fist guys in one combat squad and hit it with them. Want to kill the long fangs? Put both power weapons in the squad that's going after them.
How to get furious charge and FNP on the VVs? Use dante. Put him in a squad with a priest. Bring down the VVs within charge range and then use Dante's special no scatter rule to bring down the priest within 6. Doesn't always work of course, but when it does it's a beautiful thing!
As I say, I've played it with pure DoA and with missile devs. On balance I think I prefer the missile devs. it's a bit more flexible.
My list at 1750 is 2 librarians (unleash rage on both, fear the darkness on one and sword on the other). 4 twin melta and power fist ass squads, 2 priests with jump packs and 3 missile dev squads. I've tried it with sanquinary guard, but they just don't seem to hit and wound enough for me, and to make them really worth it they need dante, and I prefer the 2 libbies. At 2000pts I might add another ass squad, or maybe beef up the devastators with extra bodies.
Look forward to seeing how your thoughts develop.
David
Personally with the FAQ stating that you cant split reserved units into combat squads I would recommend going with multiple smaller units of VVets. I say this for a couple of reasons.
First, if you make them large it's a lot of points in one basket and it can really hurt you the games where they don't show up till turn 4-5 (it happens even with the DoA re-roll, trust me!)
Second, it also makes mishaps that much more likely (due to a larger footprint) and more costly.
Finally, with more units you get more chances at the Red Thirst!
Jawa,
Couple of worries based on my GK list (which probably isn't very 'tournament' but hey-ho):
1. My backfield has 3 GK strike squads in it, anything that deepstrikes within 12" of them automatically mishaps - how would that affect you?
2. I also have 2 Chimera filled with Psykers, if you can't land within 12" (due to point 1 above) then I'll land 2 AP1 Str8 large blast templates on your squads (36" range) per turn - with no vehicles that's going to hurt. If you do risk mishap and come in close Inquisitor Coteaz is with one squad so you'll still get the pain (plus the other squad members). Added to that my librarian has servo-skulls so scatter on the large blast isn't really an issue.
Sad thing (good thin?) is those units don't cost a lot so I still have psifleman dreds and purifiers kicking around.
Anyway, I was thinking of a deepstriking BA army but the only time I playtested it against my GK list it got trashed as it came down. Love to now what you think as I have a lot of BA RAS in the cupboard!
WATCH OUT!!!
There are a few things your going to have to keep in mind with this list. Both the Nids and Wolves have ways to make you take a dangerous terrain test every time you move (or jump i should say; with Rune Priest and Venomthropes if I recall). Thats a lot of wounds you could be taking.
Why no Sanguinary Guard? With a banner and a priest, they should take down a Nid or MC off the charge! Plus, they give you +1 attack for everything in 12 inches, which is a huge boost to the massed amount of strikes...
Food for thought...
@ Don, Sang Guard do not give an extra attack to anything but their own unit... moral rerolls withing 12.
Jawa... if you do run a libby with a pack try blood lance. It is so freakin' fun vs parking lots in this style of list. 2 Lances are even better. I've used it to great effect on the drop.
@ Jawaballs - If your biggest fear is Tau, you're doing it all wrong. I think you'll have a lot of fun until you cross an army with Halberd Purifiers and/or full GK Terminator squads (Or that guy's army above, though I suspect you'll come from the table edge, not DS against 3 GKSS). I don't share your confidence against DE with that list, but you're the BA player, not me.
Breaking down against the "common enemy" tourney group:
Meltavet spam/ Manticore / Hydra / Vendetta IG - Should do well, if only because the only people playing this anymore are those who generally don't many games in, so experience will really be on your side.
15 ML Space Wolf/ Razorspam - Similar to above. It's a bit tougher, but should be in your wheelhouse all the same.
Wolflords Space Wolves - Nasty, and will kill tons of your fancy flying guys. Better play the objectives better than your opponent.
Eldar Reservists - Have to hope your numbers come out better than theirs on the Reserves game and play the objectives (they certainly will be).
Hordes (IG, Orks, Tyranids) - Good luck! Assault just can't clear these ticks off of objectives quickly enough.
@ Eric - The FAQ says you can't split a unit into combat squads while it is in reserve. Read the question answered in the FAQ - the question is can you leave half a unit as a combat squad in reserve; the answer is no, because you can't form combat squads in reserve. Forming combat squads happens when you deploy; nothing in the FAQ answer breaks the rules in Codex: Space Marines.
So many good points. (I was not entirely serious about the Tau. :)
Enough to make me shake my head in frustration. The real point in all this is that there is frankly little the BA codex can do about the GKs.
There is always the AV 13 wall! 6 predators with 40 assault marines jumping up behind them.
@Jwolf - I really wish you were right, and I do believe that that was GW's intent, but that is not what the FAQ says. What it says is that "Units that are placed in reserves may not break down into combat squads."
I would say that by this quote here "Not a big deal though, you cant combat squad and deep strike them any way" that Jawa has the same reading of this as I do.
As I said I think that their intent was just to keep people from putting one half of a squad on the table and reserving the other, but that's not what they wrote. It really jammed me up, too because that was the way I played it in all my practice leading up to Adepticon and then scant weeks before the event they dropped that FAQ and changed the way my army played in one foul swoop!
I want you to be right, but the way I read it I do not believe you are. :(
Jawa, only two real worries (as I play GK and BA):
1. How are you goin to avoid the GK strike squads' ability to totally mess up deep strike? Anyone wants to deep strike into my GK backline they are welcome as they all suffer mishap
2. I agree you need a librarian - my GK have 2 chimera with 6 psykers in each. You can't deepstrike near them (or mishap) so I get at least one turn of dropping Str 8 AP1 large blast templates on you, instant death no armour save?
I think you are using the honor guard wrong. Slap 4 plsama guns on them and have they drop in and kill whatever you cant really assault. They zoom around shooting, and supporting assault units with FnP and FC.
Nice idea DK!
I have a question how can you claim to be competitive when you turned down a spot in the NOVA invitational out of fear of how good your competition would be? DOn't deny it I have it from Fritz himself.
How many GTs have you won Zachary?
And how many Vegas tickets did you earn? Not that it matters, but I earned three. (One with the scorned PDF Blood Angels.) I chose not to go to Vegas too.
I think my record gives me the right to claim to be a competitive player.
Some time back I wrote a whole article about why I'm not playing in the Nova Invitational, you should check it out, and the biggest reason why is that I want to actually enjoy myself on Friday by playing in a fun team tournament with my buddies.
1. not what I heard about your reasoning
2. I think your list building or lack thereof would answer questions about your competitiveness.
3. I would love to throw down on vassal with you or possibly even your own club then we shall find out.
What is this middle school? One of the 13 year old girls in my art class made that exact statement 1 today, complete with head shaking and finger waggling.
If you didn't hear it from me, than it is half truth, diluted and hearsay.
Your opinions are countered by cold hard fact. There are hot links on the right of my blog to back them up. Try the "Mechanicon winning Mech Blood Angels one."
Vassal? Heh.
Come on down to Nova, or any other tournament that I go to and we will try to get a game in.
I will probably be at the next Toywiz tournament. (I got 2nd and 1st in the last two.) Come stop me from doing it again!
Now that summer is here I will also be appearing at Battle for Salvation more. I rarely go now. I'm happy to play any one.
What army do you play? What is your list?
Wow I am glad that you have just called me a 13 year old girl shows your maturity. I play several armies including IG, BA, GK, and vanilla marines and will happily play you with any of them. Also so you are calling Fritz a liar?
Last I leave you with this: http://chaos-space-marines.blogspot.com/2011/01/conflict-gt-practice-vs-jawaballs.html
really?
Not calling you any thing. Just saying that a 13 year old girl made your exact statement while gossiping about middle school drama. Draw from it what you will.
I just spoke to Fritz, he has no clue who you are and what you're talking about. How bout you shed some light?
And I'm not sure what your point is with Black Matt's videos.
Alright you got me on that point it was my friend who talked to Fritz not me.
Here I cleaned up some of you lists:
Chaplain with Plasma Pistol
Dear God why?
Librarian with Avenger and Null Zone and Storm Shield
With the terminator armor it must it’s a good choice
10 man tactical with las canon, flamer and rhino
I like using silly las cannons too, hurray
10 man tactical with rhino, fist, multi melta and melta
Why the fist, why?
5 man tactical with razorback with TL las
Okay
Predator with autocannon turret and las sponsons
okay
Ironclad Dread with Heavy flamer
I like how fast this will no doubt be moving to be so effective
land raider crusader with Extra armor and multi melta
Okay
5 assault terminators as pictured
Add that 5th th/ss it’s decent
5 Legion of the Damned with Meltagun and Plasma Cannon
Why oh why, they are generally accepted as the second worst choice in the codex after servitors. At this point I am wondering if you even want your new friend to enjoy this game.
Mephiston
Has his uses
Reclusiarch
Subpar whatever you charge will be dead anyways
8 man assault squad with PW and Melta gun with God Hammer
That landraider adds nothing
Land Raider, Multi Melta, EA
Attached to that squad was an Elite Chaplain with Melta Pistol and a Priest with PW
So it gets worse
5 man assault squad with Melta in a las/plas razor
I like how much those two razor will do, man it will be so hard to kill them with all str 7 and below stuff
5 man assault squad in a TL Las razor
See above
5 termies in a crusader. My standard version with 4 claws and 1 hammer, also a priest in power armor. The Rec was attached to these.
I rest my case the would get along fine on their own
Meph
See other list
Reclusiarch
See other list
Termies x5
four claws
one hammer
Land Raider Crusader
Multi Melta
Extra Armor
See other list
Priests x2 no upgrades
Eh
Storm Raven
Las and multi
That’s totally usefull and clever
Devs with 4 ML
Oh wow I did not realize how much fire support you have no worries
3 assault squads
1: Rhino, Melta
2: Rhino, Melta, PW
3: Razor, TL Las (Priest catches ride)
Eh
Furioso with Talons
Oh for the stormraven, that totally excuses it’s points no worries then
And you really missed it in the video, where we watching the same stuff.
P.S. For the love of god why LoTD why?
sportsmanship is all well and good but you were asking to cheat blatantly
Cool.
That ultramarine list is actually my buddy Jim's list. I helped him with it. It is not my list.
Chaplain with plasma pistol? The metal chaplain he bought had one. He did not want to cut it off. I tried to talk him out of it, explaining WYSIWYG He insisted.
Fist on the ten man squad? Why not? That squad has a multi melta and a melta. Their job, as defined by the tactics that go with this list, is to rush to the center of the table and hold objectives, shooting that multi at any thing in the center, like holding the middle of a chess board. They are likely going to be assaulted.
But more to the point, again, why NOT? Why would a fist in this situation be a bad idea?
Damned? Again, his choice. Not mine. Your comment is rude. You might want to reconsider the way you present your points. I'm trying, hard, to not take offense. The damned are there because Jim liked them. Period. You would talk a new player out of playing a unit that he loves? I tried to, but in the end, he loved the models and I frankly think he could have done worse with some cool ass models. Let the man have his fun.
Not sure why you would attempt to pick apart my Blood Angels lists. Every list up there has won or placed in the top three of major tournaments. (Except Jim's) Though he did very well in his first tournament with that list.
The Reclusiarch is worth the extra points because of the extra initiative and wound. Assaulting at I6 makes him a hero killer.
The assault squad in the god hammer? They were a VERY successful defensive unit, and secondary assault squad. They could sit back and let the god hammer do the work, and if they had to, move up and take down most enemy units. This combo was super effective in the two land raider list and won me a lot of games and a tournament.
The biggest handicap with the Blood Angels is that they have weak troops compared to say, Space Wolves and IG. (In the GT meta game that is.) So being critical of a 5 man assault squad in a razor is like being critical of Lebron for choking in the playoffs. Pretty darned good, but just falls short, and there is no real reason why or any way to help it.
Please explain what you mean with the videos.
I'm not sure what you are calling cheating. (Remember Black Matt and I are good friends and every game we play is a grudge match where we bust each others balls to the end.) Use that grain of salt when you watch his videos.
@Jawa Hehe, don't get riled up. I quite enjoy that you are trying to find things out, rather than copy someone else. I rather get help and points about how to play a unit or how to deck it out than get a list to play. Sometimes it's about making something work, because you want a certain unit to work. I think Fritz likes to rant on about stuff like that quite a bit:) For instance, playing vanilla marines (people love the dice btw, I keep on loosing, but I've got the radest painted yellow army with matching dice:)), how the heck do get I get the best milage out of a tactical marine squad? My current thinking is moving towards 10 man squads in Rhinos and tailoring the weapons to one range. Plasma in one, melta in the next.
And any thoughts on the death company? It seems very absent from the discussion :)
Haha, not getting riled up. :) Zachary is just striking a chord and having fun doing it. But sort of like some one walking into Boston Garden, and asking for proof that the Celtics are good, ignoring the banners in the rafters while I am Danny Ainge standing there and pointing up to the roof! (Note I did not say Larry Bird, I would never presume to compare myself to that greatness.)
Oh, and Death Company are a bad choice. For the same points you can get a squad of Vanguard Vets, that are just as effective, that do not have Rage.
And for the record, Fritz only remembers talking to one person, our friend Pissclams, about me and the Nova. It is likely your friend overheard a comment in jest, or entirely missed parts of the conversation.
Do I think I would win the invitational? Probably not, especially not with the GKs in full force. But I would have a damned good chance for Renaissance Man. Which also carries a big payday.
The bottom line is that in weighing the options, I felt that a day filled with drinking beer and playing trios with Jim and Fritz outweighed a chance to win some loot. 40k is about having fun sometimes too.
@jawaballs Trying to wrap my head around this (I'm pretty tired right now).
5 Vets, 3 PW, 1 PF, 1 IP, 5xJP, priest with pw and JP. 325 points
6 Death Company, 4PW, 1PF, 1IP, 6xJP. 315 points
Majority WS5, no one guy to punk to loose FnP/FC.
I'd say DC is better but lack Heroic Intervention and suffer rage. More of a play style choice than fantastically bad.
Why even bring this up? Because I'm trying to figure out how you think when you consider what units to bring :)
Rage on, JP or not, units will be a serious issue, if you meet someone who has means and knowledge how to deal with it. It might end being 315+ points running around doing nothing.
I have seen 500 points of DC, equipped with PWs and JPs, stuck in the corner, trying to hunt down a group of jetbikes. At the point when last jetbike was hunted down and killed, game was turn 6 and practically over. Your opponent will have more control over them than you do.
The only "real use" for DC is to transport them. Yes, in Land raider foot DC is a "fine" option, as they suffer the same problem as the terminators do: unable to get anywhere else on foot after they do a first strike. Its very hard to compare them to terminators thou: you will loose 5+ invul, which is bad. But you will have double number of models in there and the ability to take a lass-cannon Land Raider, which might be a feat by itself.
And of course, you can always deliver them Khorne Berserkers style -- in rhinos.
But on Jump Packs? If fast attack slots are free, I would rather pay those extra 10 points just for the ability to control them.
I've had good luck with my DC and use them for a different role than my VV. VV are a precision unit while DC get dropped in the thick of things to create havok and attract attention. I find them more point efficient, in terms of hitting power than other elites.
However, I'd never take them with jump packs. They usually go 6-8 with one PW and one PF to keep them cheap and in a rhino or SR. So in this list, I wouldn't use them unless they were simply drop-podding down in the middle to simply annoy a particular area of the board.
"Not sure why you would attempt to pick apart my Blood Angels lists. Every list up there has won or placed in the top three of major tournaments."
Winning with a list at a tournament doesn't mean the list is good (though the player usually is), so this statement sounds really wrong if you are of the opinion of being a competitive gamer. Footdar has won tournaments. Are they good?
Also, why is it a problem that this guy wants to pick your lists apart? The only things that could happen is that he finds ways to improve it, or not, why is that a problem? :P
As for the list you have posted, I see it has some serious issues. Mainly that all your killpower (anti tank/infantry) is at 12'' or closer, which means you will struggle against those armies which can slow you down.
Armies with exceptional amounts of firepower may also wbe able to punch you so hard in a given turn(s) that you won't manage to recover.
It will work well against some armies, but not so well against others. Maybe include some devestators so you have some firepower to take out transports / mc / etc at range?
"My biggest fear? Tau"
No Jawa. Your biggest fear are Daemons and Tyranids. Hopefully with the GK and SW around the first are very rare nowadays
Tossidin,
I have no problem with guys picking lists apart. That is why I posted up this JP list to begin with! Many people have offered a LOT of great critical input. You do it well yourself. This list is stronger now than when I started.
But Zachary attacks my list building and reputation as a player, and attacks lists that despite your dismissal with the footdar reference, are proven to work. And then he offers wise nuggets of constructive inspiration like "Eh" when commenting on priests, and "That's totally useful and clever" when discussing a Storm Raven. (Not sure what that means.) He at no point offers any thing constructive to the discussion at all. If he had said something like "Instead of the Reclusiarch take a librarian and spend the extra points on upgrades for your priests." I could at least respect that. Instead he just says in reference to the Reclusiarch "Sub par, whatever you charge will be dead any ways."
You on the other hand, point out a tragic flaw, and offer a way to correct it. You are spot on. The reason why I abandoned the all jump pack list to begin with was that I had no fire support. I found myself chasing after Eldar serpents with no way to reach them.
The only reason I think this list has a chance is that the majority of the current lists that I am seeing on the competitive scene are all suspect to it. No this list won't beat all, and hopefully I won't face them all. Just the ones I can beat.
And yes, some of these lists will blast me off the table if I give them the chance.
Lets face it, Blood Angels have fallen to number 4 on the competitive codex list. It is a tight list, with one overtaking another at any given time, but still. I place them at 4th. I think that a little gambling is in order!
Zachary seems like a frustrated troll. Lol. I was just pointing out the statement and why it was wrong as I have seen wery many people just show some tournament results, then claiming other peoples arguments to be invalid. I don't like that :p
I personally don't like showing up at tournaments with anything else than "all comers lists", as I wouldn't like to have the thought that I could meet someone who I would "autoloose" against. But hey, your choise
if you wanna take the risk. Big rewards if you are good and lucky eh? ;)
BA 4th? Maybe, though they have a different playstyle than the others, so dunno if I would say they are (slightly) worse. The wolves, guard and knights seem a little more point and click though :p
I'm not sure this list is auto lose. It will take good playing for sure though! I think also that I am starting to feel the urge to shift towards very different lists. The JP list just seems fun to play.
And your point about wolves and guard and gks is spot on. They all have "point and click" net lists that can pretty much win while the player goes to make a poopy from drinking too many beers the night before. I think that any successful Blood Angels list requires a bit more finesse to do well.
Zachary a troll? I don't think I would go that far. I just think he may be a little too comfortable with his comments. He is talking to me like we are buddies sitting next to each other, not complete strangers having a civil conversation. Next time we are in the same room, he should come shake my hand, let me buy him a beer, and THEN he can talk to me however he wants. :)
Acting the gentleman, as always ;)
I put the word "autoloose" in "."s for a reason, as I use the term loosely. There is no such thing as an autoloss. I just meant that it can be really hard, and need some good play / luck if you face certain lists
Looking forwards to see how you do in the tournament, bring back some glory to the first founding chapter! :)
Hey Have we considered drop podding Furioso dreads w/ frag cannons and Grabbers? Ive done this and if they work together those cannons hurt! Plus it will take alot of pressure off your troops as they advance. No one likes AV 13 dreads in their rear lines causing havoc.
I love the dread pods, and with the lack of melta nowadays, they might be effective for a few months. I certainly had success with my "Death From Above: Stomp Stomp: list. But that was before the Mech Guard and GK lists came out. The dread pods would simply fall to their doom against these lists, and they are the lists I have to beat!
can you link that list?
It's long dead, it was the list I used with the old PDF to earn my first golden ticket!
Yo Jawaballs,
This is Ahkkesh. It's been a long summer and I haven't been on your blog for a very long time. Even though this might be a bit to late, I Already been having a 2000 points Blood Angels Army with the same ideas as yours but with a better touch to it. You see I have six 10-man Assault Squads with 2 meltagun dudes and a Sergeant with a powerfist and meltabombs; I've definitely considered Astorath for the Red Thirst Advantage;Yet here is the difference. Through a sacrifice of 340 points I've put in a 5-man Vanguard Veteran squad on jump packs and meltabombs with an assault terminator touch. 3 Veterans have a pair of lightning claws and a veteran and the sergeant have a thunder hammer and storm shield. This Idea in an army list is definitely legal it was already reviewed by a few tournament officials and accepted. That's not all. When put this list to the test. It came out in flying colors. None have ever face the devastating combination of Assault terminators' weaponry+Mobility and special abilities of the Vanguard veterans+The ferocity provided by the Blood Angels very own Red thirst. Apart from the veterans, The rest of the army did a good job and made a great contribution of it's own.So when I meet you again this September, we'll definitely talk and probably get a game on.
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