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The death of 40k as we know it?






Ok, I don't usually rant or complain about the game. I love playing and painting and have enjoyed the challenge of trying to turn the Blood Angels into a competitive army rather then a One Trick Pony relegated to the kiddies table. Over the last two years I feel that I managed to do that with grit, determination, and tactics. But I have to remark that now I feel it is all over, or soon to be.

It kind of humors me that every one is/was so afraid of the Space Pups Codex, but really, did we all forget that huge bomb dropped on the game by some guardsman flying over head? Screw the wolves, they are a One Trick Pony and will join the Blood Angels on the foldable card tables while Imperial Guard is getting all the glory.

I will never forget my first impression of the tournament scene, and really, 40k cheese in general. I had been playing the game for less then a year and had finally thrown together an army I loved. My Blood Angels assault army. I took said army to the last Gamesday 40k tournament in Baltimore about a year and a half ago, and had my first run in with super cheese. I played a Tyranid army for my first game, and that guy ran me off the table in 3 turns with the typical Stealer spam of the time. I chalked it up to my noobiness, which played a big part in it, but then I realized, probably a third of the guys in that tournament were playing the same list! I certainly had plenty of time to walk around and see what other guys were playing. Not just the same army, but almost identical lists. In the last round 10 of the top 12 players were playing the same lists. For gods sake! I realized then that 40k tournaments were sort of like taking the Emmitt Smith/Troy Aikman Cowboys of the early 90s, (Or substitute any uber sports team like Jordan's Bulls, Bird's Celtics, Shaq's Lakers)cloning them, and throwing 12 copies of the same team into March Madness. Sure you will see some cindarellas, you would see some strong teams but you were pretty much guaranteed to see only clones in the finals, playing each other. Blah!

Then 5th edition came out. (And I came into my own) The rules were new, things changed for a while. Those uber armies at that Gamesday or modeled on that list showed up on Ebay pretty quick. All those guys planning their Tyranid tattoos disappeared. You began to see... gasp... balance? With Fritz's help, I developed a working strategy and list for my Blood Angels. You were seeing other armies start to do well at major tournaments. Jeez, Space Marines were actually winning?

It did not take long for GW to ruin it. Their first swipe with the Rod of Ruin was the Ork codex. The last GW GT I went to was over run with Nob Bikers. I personally played two guys with the same list, and got rolled each time. A Nob Biker list won Best General and Orks seemed well on their way to predetermined destiny. Until players adapted, and changed their lists to combat the scourge. Nob Biker armies? Ebay welcomed you!

The Ork scare was short lived. Players can be resourceful. GW was mad. They did not hit the world with the Rod of Ruin quite hard enough. They needed more. Space Marine codex came out. People swore. Space Marines scared every one. They fizzled. Sure, Space Marine mech was back. Rhino lists were actually competitive. Cover saves made them survivable! A well played Space Marine or Blood Angels list could at least compete again. But it was not enough.

Then GW upgraded that Rod of Ruin to the Pimp Stick of Ruinous Hell, and whacked every one of us over the head with it... except the guard players... wait... people played guard? Really? Where? Well, all of those "Long time guard players" came out of the woodwork and cashed in their Genestealer/Ork Nob armies and jumped onto the Bandwagon Procession. Ack. So begins the end of 40k as we know it.

Sure, the guard needed help. Their codex sucked and they were not competitive in the tournament world. Sure, GW is not entirely concerned with the tournament scene any way. They can care less if one army is lopsided under cost and overbalanced. In fact, the more dudes trading in their flavor of the month armies for Guard the better! Cha Ching!

I realized last weekend that we are now facing the new Genestealer/Nob Biker army. Can we say 3 Valkryes and more Chimeras full of Melta/plasma Guns then you can shake a stick at? What the hell, I thought those two weapons were ancient relics of technology long lost. Why are small squads of simple guardsmen packing them 4 at a time? I got to play one of these armies for the first time, and it made my army look weak and pathetic. Is it too late to buy a ticket for that bandwagon? Maybe I can commission Jawaballs to paint me a new Guard Army. You used to run up against 4, maybe 10 meltaguns. My army could withstand that. Well sorry sucka, lets see you withstand 26 of them! Oh, and here are 9 Lascannons to boot, 6 of them Twin Linked, mounted on fast moving skimmers that can hover over their own tanks, shoot at just about any model on the table with no cover save, carry troops and only cost 130 points. A Space marine tank with the same guns cost over 150... Not to mention the incredible level of rules munching that goes along with the addition of a new unit that was never meant to be played in 40k. "It says the model cannot be ON another model, but it says nothing about being OVER it." Guh. They actually complain that the Valkrye would be too hard to use if it could not hover over their protective wall of Russ tanks. Sorry your god unit might just have a limitation.

Looks like I am going to have to actually assemble and paint all them guard sitting on my shelves if I ever want a chance to win a tournament again. Seriously though, I don't see many things changing tactic or list wise to combat this new plague. These Guard lists are packing more survivability and fire power then every before. Plus, they are adding Grey Knight Terminators who ride in Chimeras! (The guard codex says nothing about terminators riding in Chimeras.) Jesus they have every thing they need, PLUS terminators riding in transports designed for Average Joe and his lasgun.

Now that the dex has been out for a while, and people have finally had time to build and paint their armies we are going to see more and more showing up tournaments. Pretty soon, it will be just like Baltimore Gamesday 2008 again. Only the top 10 armies will be the same guard list playing their own little tournament while every one else is eating pie with their bratty cousins.

Frustrated? A little. Bitter? Sure. Definitely ranting. But the point is valid. People cry about the Wolves, but the Guard Codex has changed the game for the worse. Agree? Disagree? Chime in.

Edit:
I am all about change. My army is a testament to that. It changes every month. But seriously, I don't think I can field a Blood Angels army capable of defeating this new Guard list at all. Even if I knew what was coming and tailored it for the list. I do have some ideas and tactics, but sadly they do not involve my Blood Angels at all. And that makes me sad.

77 comments:

Fritz said...

As i've said, the overpowered guard and soon to be tyranids codex wouldn't be that bad if GW was actually timely in updating exisiting codexes like Tau, Necrons, Eldar, etc. Overall a super sucky situation, till we phase out some tactics for it. one thing is for sure- as learned by watching the guard guys at the club- thre is no way we can match going head to head.

Old School Terminator said...

I have to admit that the new Guard codex cuts down a lot of the older codex armies outright, especially when they are running a take all comers list because Guard overload some of the things that Tau and BA can't deal with in numbers and while they can overcome the Guard, I don't see it happening with a take all comers lists, they almost have to make a Guard Breaker list, which defeats the purpose of your army against most others.
At the same time, I have pulled out some victories against the tougher Guard players I know, but oftentimes it was due to dice luck on either side. The good thing is that the Guard codex made me experiment more with my standard list and really got me more engaged with my army and new tactics with old shelf units became standard units for me against anybody, which really breathed new life into the hobby side of things too.
Hopefully GW will speed up their updates so we aren't waiting forever for some of the great older armies to get up to speed with the new way of the codex: the Powerdex!

Tdubs036 said...

It does seem that the guard have got overwhelming firepower at low cost. Sure guard are supposed to be like that in the fluff but space marines are supposed to be superhuman killing machines which doesn't reflect on the tabletop

Quite a few friends are getting blown off the table by battlecannons and flyers!

Farmpunk said...

The new IG 'dex is strong. I don't complain a lot. I've played IG for 3yrs, and they sucked. So did the Inquisition.
Ig is one of the few bones an =I= player's had tossed their way in a long time.
Now I know the DE's and 'crons need some love too, I won't argue that by any stretch.

I think codex power creep is a problem. Especially when it takes GW FOREVER to release a new codex. Then they overlook old codecies (because noone plays them) to update newer codexes "becasue they sell". the old codexes don't sell quite as well due to being outdated.

so here comes the 'counts as' forces. I think it's sad.

Capitano said...

how about this to make you feel a bit better...

those terminators are not allowed to ride in a Chimera...

Land Raider or Drop Pod only and last time I checked the Deamonhunter codex did not have a Drop Pod opition....just Rhino, Land Raider and I think the Chimera...then it goes on to say something about Terminators not being able to fit into anything but the Land Raider...

...yes I know one out of 15 is not that good on making you feel better...but hey...I tried to help...

But on another side note...

the meltas are not actually a technology the Imperium is loosing...

IT IS THE PLASMAS...gawd...I hate plasmas...

Bushido Red Panda said...

The best I've been able to do so far against guard was a draw back when it first came out. I'm not sure if any of my armies would be able to handle it now. Each time it seems like I'm doing well, it all goes terribly wrong.

I feel your pain. I think it's only going to compound when nids are released. Maybe if we're lucky, nids will be a counter to guard and it might at least balance the super power armies.

Col. Corbane said...

I've been a long time guard player and in the past, I got used to losing, so the new codex is a great step up for me.

It's not the all winning codex that everyone makes out, but then everyone makes every new codex that they don't play that comes out is an all winning codex.

I have problems with Tau, Marines, Nids and Orks, but they're all down to how the armies are played, not what's in them.

How well an army is played is far more important than what's in it and that comes down to experience. There may have been 10 same lists of the 12 in the finals but I bet the other two were played by people who'd been playing their lists for a long time.

We'll always have one trick pony's coming out with new codex's but as soon as you've figure out how to combat that trick, it's sorted. Then it's down to experience.

The other thing about people who chase the new codex's after the latest ubber list, once you know how to handle it, they've got nothing.

Just my thoughts, and finally, it's a good day to be a guardsman.

Lucas said...

It says in the daemon hunter codex that models in termanter armor take up two spaces in a chimera.

jawaballs said...

Amen Col! It is indeed a good day to be a guardsman. Can we get a page number on the ruling for wether or not GK Termies can ride in a Chimera?

ctreleheb said...

In the right hands Guard has been tabling people since 3rd edition. They have always been a strong army, just not many really spent the money to play, redraft lists, play and play until they had the army perfected. Everyone just bought the shiny things,lost, said "Guard Suck" and ebayed. Now with blogging and internet lists being so common it costs less to play guard well because someone else already play-tested and posted there winning lists. Though some who win most of the time with their guard can still post a list and have 20 people who don't even play them tell them what to change.

I started playing guard 8 years ago and stopped because frankly I was tired of winning, it became boring tabling over half my opponents. I have plans to start revamping, but with everyone complaining I think I'll just wait til the new goes away.

To recap, you should have started complaining 10 years ago.

suneokun said...

I gotta agree with the guard list ... i'm getting the nickname 'the mortarer' at the local games club. I don't like Vendettas or Valks, but CHimeras are now so good and the ability to roll with mulitple plasma and melta is just ridiculous.

The issue is too many options with Guard. Its nice, but you now have the ability to field a lethal combination at pretty much everything.

That said, my recent bout was guard on guard ... so fair dues.

I frequently take the 'crapper' units and keep to grenade launchers just for the fluff of my army, I don't do tournaments though...

But my 12-15 mortar plus 6 chimera infantry platoon is just lethal...

That's the problem - too much freedom.

Magilla Gurilla said...

I guess I am not on the bandwagon. I played my Eldar for years until I stopped playing in 3rd edition due to familia obligations.

When I came back, I trade away my eldar for Tyranids. I was told I could not win with Tyranids in 5th edition because they couldn't beat Mech.

However, if you look at my blog and pictures, I have been doing okay. I have not won a tournament, but I usually place in the top 3. I don't even run the typical Nidzilla list, because I "gasp" run Warriors.

Anyways, the point is that a general who knows his army will beat a player who is playing the latest and greatest "internet list o'Power" quite often.

Am I excited about the new Tyranid codex, you are damn right I am. Running my army for three turns to get into range to shoot with my range 18 weapons or to get into range to assault is annoying.

I do agree that the guard codex is down right hard. It is a tough nut to crack. If I didn't have all those boxes of waveserpents, fire prisms, and jetbikes on my shelf, I would probably play them for my next army. I do think they are undercost, but I do not think they are unbeatable.

Actually, the fact that they run so many meltaguns is a boon for my Nids as it means three wounds at the worst. I actually am more afraid of Grenade Launders, Mortars, and a Multi-lasers.

Armies that hurt me are those that use an overwhelming number of shots. A Demolisher can cause one wound on my Hive Tyrant....a stupid Baal Predator that is acting like a fast vehicle can kill him in one turn.

Just my opinion

Crazy Red Praetorian said...

IG has always had the fire power. What they lacked was mobility and the ability to use that fire power when moving. Being able to fire 5 weapons out of the top hatch of a Chimera and NOT being considered opened topped has really helped IG. The Valk/Vendetta has finally given IG the ability to move fast enough to contest objectives in one turn.

Winning tournaments with IG in 3rd and 4th Eds was a challenge that to most was not something that was achievable. I don't think IG are unbeatable. As a matter of fact, I know they have their weak points, just as every army does. If you're playing against IG, you just have to figure out their weak points and key on them.

pissclams said...

one thing as well, the guard players at jawaballs club are top tier players and far from 40k nups.

pissclams said...
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pissclams said...

regarding grey knight termies in chims. There is nothing stating they cannot ride in them. They can not ride in rhinos because it says termy armour can not go in them. This description is not involved with chims.

The recent faq did however state that valks/vends cannot take termies.

gk termies cannot take DH chims because they arent included in there DH codex description as "crew". The IG codex does not list "crew" due to the new 5th edition vehical rules.

Fritz said...

True that that the 'guard players at our club (me & JB) are top players, know the rules, and know what works. In this case the over powered army combined with their skill means they just blast everything off the table- with no mistakes being made their is nothing to chance exploit.

The problem I have is how do you deal with 6-8 chimeras with a multi-laser, heavy bolter, stubber, and HK missile all firing + the las cannon and dudes popping the rear hatch.

My few wave serpents just can't compete with that, suddenly a twin linked bright lance and shuriken cannon doesn't mean $hit.

What pisses me off the most, is not that guard players get to have their day in the sun- they deserve it, but with GW's piss poor timeline of releasing new codexes. I don't want to get my balls kicked in every game based on just my opponent rolling dice for two years while I wait for a new Eldar and Necron codex to drop. Hell, I'll be playing 40K with JB's son by the time Eldar get a new codex!

Makes me want to finish the Mordheim table sitting in my basement and play that for two years or so till I get a new 'dex!

Aldonis said...

Calm down fellows...don't despair!

Let's look at some data first:

Other than this years 'ard boyz - Guard haven't won a tourney.

Big Waagh - dominated by Marines - New Guard are second tier there. I saw a LOT of nice guard armies with pretty tanks and nice little airforces. But they didn't out perform the basic Marine builds.

BOLS con - Tyrannids and Orks in the top spots? Right? Not sure the whole spread otherwise - but still not winning the big prize. In spite of it sounding like there are several good guard players in Austin area. I would imagine at least a few Guard armies did attend.

For 'ard Boyz - the 2500 pt limit is a huge boon here - you have lots of nice shiny things in the guard army that are great weapons - but don't fit in a 1500 or 1850 pt list - but bring it up to 2500 and you get to have a lot of fun. That is meant in no way as a negative to the guy that won - that was a great job. He choose a great army to go with.

Guard is a really good codex - and I think it can be and is top tier. There are a lot of options though to take against it. Anything that can outflank and hit them before they get hit has good odds. Most armies have that option. The missions can play against them also - still a lot of kP's to give up and guard aren't the strongest of armies to hold onto objectives.

Don't give up hope Eldar, Marine, Chaos, Bug etc players - just find a way to crack that new nut.

AutarchAndrew said...

I find that when ever a new codex comes out a bandwagon of complains poor out im not afraid of any codex people who play he non-codex 5th just have to wait there turn for there codex to come out

jawaballs said...

Aldonis, not to argue with you because you make a good point. But Bolscon Best General was a self admitted noob playing an internet guard list that he batch painted in a hurry to make the tournament. His point and shoot guard list almost won him the whole thing but a very experienced nid player edged him out in the final game, after loosing to him earlier in the tournament. I think Bolscon was as good an example of support for the overwhelming power of the IG dex as you can find. No, Guard have not won many major events... yet. But it's starting! People are just now starting to roll out their uber lists because it takes so long to paint all those chimeras and vets. That new guard dex is only months! Soon we are going to be seeing the top 10 tournament tables loaded with Lascannon Valks and Melta/plasma vets in Chimeras.

From my experience at my club, take two good, smart and saavy players, give them the new uber guard list, buh bye.

jawaballs said...

Andrew, you are off a bit. I did not say a word about the IG rumors pre-release. I did not say a word when they were released. I gave them plenty of time to see how they do on the table and in tournaments before passing my judgement. Now that guys finally have their new armies complete and they are showing up here and there, it is obvious. My comments are not based on fear of rumors and unconfirmed codex entries. They are based on fact.

AutarchAndrew said...

well jawaballs you better prepair out in here in the woods of PA its and IG nest but if i can handle it i think you guys would do just fine

Docrailgun said...

Well, the upside is that there are plnety of rumors that there will be a BA or BA/BT/DE Codex soon... so we should get some COdex Creep lovin' coming our way.

In the meantime, I'm waiting for the Russ Heresy to die down.

jawaballs said...

Yes yes, I hope they put the new "alternative" marines over the top to balance the creep! And yes Andrew, I am coming to Mechanicon packing the best list I can to deal with the new IG threat, and still not get blasted off the table by every other army. But some one posted it here already.. you can possibly prepare for IG, but will leave your self open to every thing else. I hope I can balance it!

Fritz said...

I can think of 120 ways to balance it...

brianniro said...

I found your comments very interesting, and I have two significant questions:

1. You seem to suggest that GW insidiously caters to the power creep for each new "competitive" release, but then immediately suggest that GW doesn't really care about the tournament scene. I'm not sure that you can have it both ways, as the logic of one statement seems to conflict with the other. Moreover, two of the three releases you mentioned clearly didn't hold much genuine value in terms of genuine power creep and had tournament traction only because of their novelty, not their genuine power per se. You presume, however, that the problem here is indelibly GW's. I suppose the question here (and I almost always see the same logic operating in these kinds of comments) is as follows -could the problem be with the players, specifically on the tournament scene, and not with GW at all? As it stands, I'm not sure that you've considered that option.

2. How do you explain the results of BoLScon, which saw an "outdated" tyranid army take the cake? Where, I am left wondering, was the power creep and/or inherent imbalance on display there?

I'm sorry to see this turn for both you and Fritz, but please know that I'm not being antagonistic. I have seen quite a few of these slippery-slope-doomsday posts in the last two years, and I've yet to see one actually come true.

I'm not saying. I'm just saying.
bsmoove

Sahneyoghurt said...

I know you guys are all about tournaments and stuff. I dont care that much about the new guard because nearly noone in my sourrounding is as good as the ppl around you. I have lots of ppl who see an opportunity in there codex dont like the fluff or the models behind it and therefor dont play it. I am a bit down atm because Eldar slowly but constantly fall back behind the new codexes. But as long as I can play games against "usual" lists with my fluff lists I'm satisfied. I loved the SM, Tau, Nid and Eldar Codex those 4 are really well balanced and all those armies make hell lot of fun to play as long as you dont meet an imba Ork or IG list and soon SW and Nids will fall out probably.

I guess we Eldar wont get love befor 6th but someday when I will have lots of Eldar Models and will be able to field whatever GW has pushed I wont do it. I will continue to play my Craftworld and thats it.

BA will be released soonsish I think well at least a lot sooner than Eldar. I dunno I hope for necs and that they upgrade Eldar in order to fight new necs sincs the necrons and Eldar hate each other so much. But honestly I hardly believe Necrons will get a new Codex any soon. Nids, BA, DE eventually but I wouldnt give much on the roumors either, another SM dex well more SM dex, Chaos maybe...but Eldar, Tau, Cron and DE are just the ethnic minority groups everyone likes to kick there asses but only really a few want them to have new stuff and so they wont be updated anywhere befor 2012-13-20-after my live time whenever not anysoon.

Sahneyoghurt said...

Something to add about those flyers. A guy at my store wants to play 12 Eldar Tanks in a 2000P list. This is some sort of comparable to a Vaylkrie only list for guard i think. Well in this situation 6 synchro brithlances and 3 s9 shots would be up to 36 snychro bright lances or something over 12. Well who comes up on top here? X(

Sahneyoghurt said...

brianniro,
The power codexes have nothing to do with the tournament scene. New players in 40k esspecially young ones always ask whenit comes to choosing an army if it is good. And you want to tell them something. Since the web is so common they read themselfs and so find out from tourney players often in rants which army is theoretically best. I think this fact is integrated into GW codex policies but it has nothing to do with the players at tourneys.
Everyone specially starters want there army to be good. Thats why GW follows this policy not because some few ppl buy each new army just because they can go to tourneys and win with it. Though this integrates seemlessly into their overall strategy.
They are good at what they do...

On Bolscon they changed a lot of thigns when it came to Victory Points and I think they had some imba list in mind while doing so since they are all very very experienced players and now what is up. So you are partly right main problem lies not at the payers on tourneys but on the organizers of tourneys. As Fritz said everyone in US plays 1750+ in a tourney in switzerland ppl came to playing smaller point sized games on the same table size to compensate the inflation of point costs.
Actually those guys making tourneys need to think deeper about what they do.
But this doesnt remove the fact that the slow codex dropping bit by bit is a bad thing to do by GW.
Since none of us players are able to write a balanced dex for there races GW should to it and than everyone complains in occasional rants about them not doing it right. If we were wiser we could form out own council that reworks GWs Rules constantly but no council would be accepted since everyone just wants his personal best. We can only accept the slash hammer of the IMperator and ofc we moan when we get struck by it. And therefor we blame the master to misstreat us but we sold out souls to a hobby to a cooperation and we cant get them back. Now we are slaves and what would happen if slaves wouldnt even be allowed to moan from time to time. Ranting is part of it all, part of developing new tactics. The first step actually to go and win games again. Or the last step out of the hobby. I must say i might get to gothic again or to another system, when things peak for me. But as soon as my new dex arrives i will be back.
I actually believe GW wouldnt be able to sustain its high quality and continous updates if they were realing stuff for example on the internet simoulltanously wihtout releasing models and stuff. They need to sell stuff they are a company the masters and we are the slaves we need to obey and occassionally we are allowed to moan. If we want to free ourselfs lets get going. Revolution I can do terrain pieces who can develope 6th Edition and new dexes for DE, Necs, Tau, BA, BT, SM, Daemons and the rest?
I like the topic i like to read the rant and I like to think about why ppl rant. And i like to rant myself. Its all part of the greater picture.

Lucas said...

page#22 Inquisitor Lord.
Hope that helps sum :)

Lucas said...
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Natakue said...

Dont give up man! I know the Blood Angles are lacking...but I belive 100% that they can take a guard army. Now I dont know how much water this hold with me since im the weakest link im my group...I would love to try a face them with my Blood Falcons.

Natakue

Sabb said...

Chris,

The question is, "What is the IG counter?" As a marine player "Meching" helped against the Nob Biker cheeze(in addition to many other things), but I feel it's almost putting us at a disadvantage against IG. I feel drop podding marine horde might be able to weather the storm, but then that opens us up to what caused us to "mech" in the first place. "Damned if you do, damned if you don't."

I also don't believe you can really compare an army's success between "regions". Areas use different amounts of terrain, point totals, tourney mission styles, and then there's player skill. What I can say is that the IG players in MY AREA are some of the better overall players, regardless of what army they're using.

BTW, when are you guys holding another Battle of Salvation?

-Greg

Eric said...

yeah jawa we just have to wait half a year and we should be getting our own Blood angels codex :D maybe this time blood angels will be the one who are op . its still a rumor to if were getting a codex thought from what i heard theyre doing the ba codex because of space hulk.but yes i do agree i feel that ig are kinda to powerful atm the only way i see to beat them is to make those anti guards list i find that tau sub rail gun shots + marker light is a nice anti guard strategy

Gonewild said...

I started collecting Blood Angels because of you, Jawa. So, to see you this pessimistic is a little disconcerting. However, I understand the sort of frustration this sort of situation elicits.
I asked Jwolf to read your blog post and offer his opinion on the matter- perhaps he can suggest something that has yet been over looked? I'm still wading through the 5th edition rules, myself, and have no table-top experience to offer.
Continue fighting the good fight, my man.

Ryanjsmall said...

I 100% agree with you about the speed at which GW updates their codexs. They take so so long. I draw the comparison to Dawn of war 2. Yes yes its a computer game but there are continual patches to update the multiplayer to even things up. I think a resonable thing for them to do would be release the codexs in binder form online. Then have teams monthly working out who is over powered and underpowered and bring out updates. Print them off and then replace those certain pages in your binder. But then again who ever gets nerfed is always going to get annoyed and the cycle starts again. So there is my 2 cents.

fenrisiandog said...

i know this is a crazy idea but maybe an all foot slogging marine horde would work. i mean think about chaos can put 120 troop marines on the table and the new marines can put 60 with free and cheap weapons. I mean how many lascannons and rockets can a valkryie possibly take? so far i have this experiment in my gaming club with a list in 1750 with space marines that sit there and shoot and have counter assaulting units with a cheap chaplain. i don't how well blood angels can pull a gun line but i know with codex marines and probably chaos you CAN out shoot guard. you get them out of there tanks and they squish to bolters. Try it for a game and proxy some models, i love they look on a guard players face when you out number them with marines. then the new marines also have the masters of the forge which make so basically everything in your deployment zone gets a three up, lol even the thunder fire cannon has it's uses by taking a dump on guard infantry. i dunno try it as an experiment and see if it works, its fun none the less.

jawaballs said...

Gonewild, the Blood Angels will get mega love with the next edition of their codex, hopefully by next summer. Then I will be all smiles again! My biggest beef is not that IG can take valks and vets in chimeras and such, it is that Valks only cost 130 points. A marine tank with the same fire power costs over 150! So 1 front armor point makes that much difference? Add in the rest of what the Valk can do and it is just silly. I think they are cool and add a fun element to the game, but they should cost well over 200 points. Sorry I havnt had a chance to read all the comments yet!

Jacob Bodmer said...

I was stressed about guard.
Then I finished my most recent Space Marine army, I call it "The Meta Game Breaker":

Shrike
tons of TH+SS Terms
50 scouts
4 speeders
2 whirlwinds.

If I'm going first. GG guard. I first-turn charge you with 50 models (and there's a neat little trick with the terms, but that's another story)
I now auto-hit your pricey little tanks, on their rear-armor 10. Yeah, that includes your Vendettas.
Whatever squads don't get pinned now get one round to shoot me, GLHF taking out ~60 T4 models before my next turn, especially without your demolisher cannons, multi-lasers, medusas, hydras, and valkaries.

oh, but I'm going second you say? No problem, It's all outflanking.

If you can't stand across the table from them and win a firefight (you can't) Don't walk across the table.

Space Wolves also have the option to do dirty, sinful things to the new guard, with, say, 30 wolf scouts entering play from their table edge, for example.

Strong drop-pod alpha-strikes can still break the back of guard armies too. Unlikely, takes some luck, but possible.
Unless they take a Demon hunter Inquisitor.

tylerbottrell said...

Alright, so I am going to leave my tag on this board for one reason only, I am a noob. I know, I know... you are saying to yourself, "why listen to the noob?! He is... a noob!!!" Well, I honestly feel in such a discussion my point of view has a great deal of relevance. I started to paint 40k about 3 months ago now. I have yet to even try playing a game with them yet. I plan on it, but for the time being I simply love painting my Blood Angels and keeping them in line with BA history and dogma. As these last 3 months or so has passed by I have spent way more time than the average human being should spend devoted to a hobby. Not only do I paint to the point that my girlfriend thinks I have an eating disorder because I forget to eat meals, but if my computer is on I am reading up on or buying something 40k related. All of this time spent researching has consistently led me towards a reoccurring thought... "These GW guys must make a *%$#@ load of money". I hate to say it, but this needs to be the number one factor in what is driving GW to consistently focus on the expansion and recreation of one codex after another without a sense of balance. I mean, think about it... I am sure if you got together enough people off the internet new, fair and balanced codexes could be made and released simultaneously for each individual army. You wouldn't even need to pay these people either. There are people arguing on message boards about what should be in the next BA codex who would kill to have their thoughts published. But that's not going to make money. As stated in the rant, the moment these new steroid pumped codexes emerge for the orks, the gaurd, and so on, there are always those out there who are ready to jump ship and buy up all that is offered to them, while paying off potentially %5 of their newly incurred debt using ebay. GW is a company and they need to make money and this is the best model they have found to do it. I'm not complaining, just simply putting it how I see things. Obviously for those who want to compete against unfair odds on a competitive gaming level will eventually cave and pay up. And if you are like me and you are just starting out on an army like the Blood Angels you can't help but sit back and say "man, some... who am I kidding, all of those new guard minis sure beat the cosmetic hell out of Lemartes...". This builds up on people who eventually may just have to cash it all in... and then do it all over again. Jawaballs, and everyone else, I know I am a noob who has never even played the game before, but there is a reason we are Blood Angels and his name is Sanguinius. There is a reason why we shouldn't convert to guard, orks, or anyone else, and it's called capitalism.

jawaballs said...

Ok, trying to get through the comments and offer some replies.

Brianniro, you are the second guy to mention Bolscon and the nid guy winning, and the second guy to fail to point out that Best General was a self admited 40k noob playing the new IG god army that he batch painted in a hurry to meet the tournament requirements, that he actually beat that nid dude the first time he played him that weekend, and that the nid guy barely edged him out in the final game due to scenario circumstances. Oh, and that nid guy was a 40k vet. Bolscon is a perfect example of the power of the new IG dex not an arguement against my point.

As for GW, I suggest that they do not care about the experience of the player at all, they especially do not care about the competitive tournament player. They care about profit. Putting a 60 dollar model in stoers, then putting it in the dex for a fraction of what it should cost is proof of that. Not only does it ensure that people will buy the model times 3, but that every one else will have to change their armies to adapt. When they released the Land Raider Redeemer kit, they got some sales I'm sure, but imagine if they put it in the codex for 130 points...

You do start to make a good point though, then trail off on it. What do you suggest is the problem with tournament players?

jawaballs said...

Greg, totally not confirmed, but I think Bobby is planning a tournament at BFS in November, 2k points. Two of the guys have their uber IG lists ready to go. I'm prepping my army to compete! Bring the hard stuff! I will let ya all know once I find out the news myself.

SAJ said...

Jawa, I'm a noob, and haven't read the new IG codex. I'm wondering though, would they be as powerful on a board with heavy terrain, like a Cities of Death setup?

Even if that did blunt their teeth, I realize that might not help tournament-wise, but it could make other games more BA friendly.

tylerbottrell said...

Yahhhh.... wrote all of that very early in the morning. Also I am very sick. I am not saying there is anything wrong at all with tournament players. I really respect the understanding you (Jawaballs)and all other tournament players have of the game. And as I said, I too wish to actually start to play and not just paint. My point that I missed out on was simply that for no matter the reason you are involved in 40K, whether painting, playing, or a combo of both, you are getting taken for quite the financial ride and I highly doubt GW cares at all.

Colby said...

"The death of 40k as we know it?"

Or the "Death of 40k Tournaments as we know it?"

I don't think the power creep in the 40k army books (and I certainly agree that the creep exists) necessarily disadvantages everyone who enjoys the hobby, just those that only enjoy the hobby by playing the game competitively. My local gaming group have been making pushes in the recent months to move back into a more relaxed 40k atmosphere where it's okay to bend the rules presented in the official codices if it makes the game more fun for everyone else. But that's something that we're actively having to work very hard at, because deep down the gamer in all of us wants to win. And we do like going to tournaments. And we most CERTAINLY enjoy winning.

But the hobby is what you make of it.

And by the way, you're most certainly correct about the results of BoLSCON. The 'Nid player won because he's been playing the same type of army for an eternity. I only did as well as I did because I brought a stronger than average army and practiced for two months before the tournament with it. My gaming group was probably getting in four or five games a week in the two months leading up to BoLSCON. We knew we were noobs (I've only been playing for two years myself), but we figured the 5th edition rules switch-up would at least give us some backing when facing off against veterans who were still trying to adjust to all the changes from 4th edition (or 3rd, depending).

But I didn't make it to the top tables on my army list alone. I DID practice with playing my army quite a bit, I got VERY lucky when I needed it the most, and I played against friendly people who knew what they were doing and didn't bog down the momentum of the games with rules bickering.

I've got to run for now, but don't loose hope in your BAngels, Jawaballs. You've seen what they did to the Wolves. Your time will come, and I'm sure it'll be a friggin' Reckoning! :D

Peace

jawaballs said...

Ahh! Hey man! Tell your space wolf scrub buddy I hope he enjoys his new dex. I will see him next year. I will of course adapt and enjoy the game. But it is probably going to mean that I need to drasticly change my army, buy new models, drop my rhinos that I worked so hard on...

Thanks for chiming in!

Colby said...

Don't you DARE drop those Rhinos! Blood Angel Rhinos are the BEST!!

You should be proud to own rhinos that awesome looking. I still think the BAngels codex is strong enough to compete if people use it to its strengths. Fast rhinos and Baal Preds combined with the USR bubbles of Dante and Corbs still makes for an effective combination.

And btw, that Space Wolves scrub is rolling around on the floor in extacy with his shining new codex. It's too bad that Banewolves still kill Space Wolves just as good as anything else. :P

Kris said...

40k died when players failed to hold GW accountable for releasing rules like a drunken gobbo in a fungi field.

You can't release core rules while failing to revise all forces without destroying balance and game play. Then again you have to have a decent point costing system to start with!

Fools.

AutarchAndrew said...

i didnt read this post for 3 days and i come back and everyone is fighting guard are awesome but i would never play them space wolves are cool im only playing them because there fluff is intresting and i dont like standard marines everyone should stop worrying about the new codexs ihave played guard alot and its all the same i find there easy to beat maybe because i have a balanced list.space wolves there just marines dont complain when your codex comes out people will complain and you will laugh give guard there turn i know there weakness play them and youll find out SHIT

Jwolf said...

The Guard Codex isn't overpowered if you play against it correctly. Play 100 games against them and you'll develop tactics that work for almost any force.
Except Necrons, who should just concede the game and spend the otherwise wasted time drinking or something.
The worst army to play against IG is Eldar, and the worst Eldar list against IG is Sam Hain, so I can appreciate Fritz's point of view.

AutarchAndrew said...

exactly what jwolf said ive played 4 games and already have strageys

Ash said...

Where does it say a Valk can "hover over" its own units. I read the IG book cover to cover and the FAQ on GWs site and I can't find it. A little help please.

jawaballs said...

The rule munch is in the rules for skimmers. It says they may not end their move ON a model or some such. I dont know exactlly. The munchers say that it says ON not ABOVE, that means they can end above. I always thought that no model may exist under any part of another. A Falcon Grav Tank cannot end its move on a piece of raised terrain, and have it's front wings extend out over another model for example. The only problem is, what happens if it gets destroyed while above a tank? It becomes a floating hunk of difficult terrain? I say it should crash in a fiery comet of death to all unfortunate enough to be below it.

Helmian said...

Skimmers usually have a base don't they? So, if you want them to hover over something you have to put onto the model that you wish to hover over, therefore, you can't hover directly over it. What you can do, is to place it directly behind the model you want to hover over, it will create a illusion of you hovering over it, but you will not be 90 degrees over it.

Old Shatter Hands said...

Hey man, cheer up. Play more games, have fun and stop worrying about winning so much. You can still win best painted with your awesome paint jobs.

The guard codex is GW's answer to poor sales of IG in previous years. It used to be that you would rarely see an IG army out there. Those that you did see, were lovingly painted and themed. But they were rare. To counteract poor sales, GW decided to give them a huge boost and undercosted nearly everything in the codex.

Imagine the amount of man-hours and british pounds it took to produce the Valkery kit. You know GW looked at that and said "Let's try to sell lots of these. Make it so a player can field multiples of these in a standard sized army list. oh and make them kick ass"

No doubt about it. Of course, no one can blame them for doing so. It is a money making company. Their primary goal is to make money. I want them to make money. Why? So the game I love doesn't get discontinued. I know its hard to imagine right now but its a real concern for GW- going under.

I want to thank all of those flavor of the month cheesy players for purchasing all of those valkeries and guard stuff. You are keeping my hobby going.

If you play Warmachine, you know in the back of your mind, that company could go out of business real fast. Then warmachine is over for you.

No, Guard aren't the end of 40k, they are sustaining it for the future.

ALittlePerspective said...

LOL

I said it as soon as the guard codex leaked. Posted it on the BOLS comment section and was promptly banned. Noone would hear or believe that guard were broken. Now bushidoredpanda is here agreeing with you. Oh how things change.

I'm a new player which means I see the game through very different eyes from the the oldskool players. I learnt and know only 5th edition rules. I went through every codex when deciding which army to play. When the new guard codex came out it was so painfully obvious how undercosted everything was. I introduced a couple of mates into the game. They saw it straight away too. Only a jaded 40+ year old GW fanboy could see it and deny it.

The guard have a ~15-20% discount on most units, with some being even worse. I think if two equal skilled players played, 2000 points vs guard 1750 would be fair. Not only that, guard scale well to any points level. Have you ever played a 500 point game against them? It's hilarious. With squadron rules, they can go to 3000 points easily while all the other armies have clogged up all their slots and are forced to bulk up on troops.

40k tournaments are dead. The game isn't built for it. GW can't write rules and can't balance. When I found out that one person writes an entire codex I laughed- it all made sense! They get the people who write fluff to design the rules too. How can the game ever be suitable for tournament play.

The new guard dex was a knee jerk reaction to 2 things. 1) the proliferation of video gaming has destroyed hobbies like warhammer. Video games offer cheaper, quicker and more readily accessible entertainment. They can be balanced instantly with patches and the communities for major games are bigger and lets be honest, less likely to be the loner kid from school.
2) the economic recession which made an overpriced hobby like warhammer unaffordable. GW were desperate to restore revenue. They were willing to break the game for it. With some overpowered rules and expensive plastic vehicle kits the few sales they did make were all going to be expensive guard stuff. Valkyries flew off the shelves. Kasrkin started selling out. The ugly chimera models went. Forgeworld sold out of conversion kits.

Tbh the best things to do is to follow GW's lead. They cancelled all major tournies in the US. Why? They wanted a year of revenue before everyone realised that the game system just died. We should just go back to the hobby- painting, modelling. I'm not even thinking about getting into the competitive scene until every army has a new codex. Which may indeed be never- GW have a good chance of becoming bankrupt by then.

jawaballs said...

Alilperspective, I gotta say that was well said and actually sounded rational. OldShatterhands too! I understand and support GW making money and doing what they have to do. But they have set a nasty precedent. Here is how I see it, and this is based on what I have been told about older versions of 40k.

40k and DnD can be compared fairly well. 40k 3rd edition was like ADnD. Good game every one liked. ADnD 2nd edition and 40k 4th edition come next. Both had sort of short runs, both sort of added something good to the game, both had their shortcomings. 5th edition is DnD 3.0. Pretty new and big changes. Good stuff! 3.5 comes along, in our case, the guard codex. Things spiral out of control. Now it is possible for guys to make insanely powerful player characters (IG) that completely trivialize the base classes (Marines/Eldar) Now every one has to multiclass and take multiple prestige classes just to get a character that can keep up. (Valkryes) Things build and build until finally every thing needs to be erased and started fresh. In DnD, they progressed the time line of the game world a couple hundred years and neutered all of the classes so they all work the same. In 7th edition, we can look forward to Warhammer 50k populated by a bunch of Imperial Guardsmen, each toting a Meltagun in a holster and a plasmagun over their shoulder, hotroding around in a Valkrye or Chimera.

Old Shatter Hands said...

I remember the days of 40k 2nd edition. Back when they had something called a "psychic phase" and "overwatch". You do not want to go there my friend...

Back in those days you could build characters that could take on entire armies. I remember I played chaos and I had this tzeentch CSM sorceror that would fly around on a disc, toasting guys with flames of tzeentch or bolt of change or or something like that and every 3 casualties would create a pink horror which was then in CC with the target unit. If you killed that pink horror, it would create 2 blue horrors. It was ridiculous and I won entire games with that one character. Then I discovered the Cameoline cloak and he could fly to cover, and hide to go out of sight!!!

No you don't do want to go back there...

Persephone 66 said...

Hey Jawaballs, I'm kinda new to 40k and I play Orks, but I still understand. My girlfriend plays Blood Angels and she is rather upset about the new codexes, especially the Space Wolves, and the lack of a Blood Angels codex.

I think it's already been said here, but it seems GW is more concerned with profit than making the game enjoyable. Which is kinda sad.

I know it's a little off topic, but one thing I noticed on the GW site while looking some things up is that the DA, BT, and now SW all have codexes and chapter upgrade packs where the BA's do not. Makes them look rather neglected.

Jwolf said...

At this point I'm going to laugh at the doomsayers a little - the problem isn't that the IG Codex provides anything other than Valkyries for too low a point cost, it's that you're trying to pound square pegs into round holes. I play a damned near battlebox (with Possessed, a Dreadnought, AND Raptors, all 3 of the "bad" units) CSM list with great success against fairly optimized IG lists on a regular basis.
IG and now Spacewolves have abilities which make old tactics bad decisions, but nothing in either Codex invalidates any other Codex (though some units are marginalized by some units in each Codex, to be certain).
I am still shocked at the percentage of opponents who simply put all their models on the table every game, who lack outflanking and deep striking elements, and who commit a multitude of other sins in some vain attempt to play rock'em sock'em 3E today.
I know that I'm fortunate to have the ability to play very regularly and get just about any opponent force on the table to play against, but a lot of the problems I see on the table have nothing to do with any of the new books and everything to do with players using the same tactics they had 10 years ago (or at least that were common 10 years ago).
If IG are plastering you, play more games against them. If you play 10 games with a list and lose every one, change your list. Yes, I know changing your list might mean buying new models; buying new models is an addiction I'm all about promoting anyway.
Unless you play Necrons, you can beat either Codex. If you play Necrons, I'm sorry, but 5E hates you personally.

ALittlePerspective said...

Jwolf we hear what you're saying. We understand that the game is not so broken that a 2 year old kid can show up with guard and win. What we're saying is that at a tournament level, you cannot hope to come first if you're not playing as IG.

With two players of equal skill, the guard player should always win as long as he rolls anything near to average dice. You can change your list after 10 games to beat them, but then enjoy getting plastered by horde orks or nids instead. Guard won ard boyz. No doubt he was a good player too, but don't tell me in the whole of the US noone is better than this guy. At the beginning people were still adjusting. This is a slow hobby where making changes to your army takes weeks of buying, painting and modelling before things end up at a playable stage. As time goes by and people start making the right changes- guard will dominate. The new wolves will have to make do with second.

It's funny really. Guard are kinda only balanced by two things. Being so prohibitively expensive in terms of money that few people can afford the right kit for wysiwyg tournies (and therefore end up using their horde of guardsmen supported by baslisks and ogyrns). And second, having a codex full of so many good options it's hard to pick out the best units and avoid just taking one of everything.

I will have to politely disagree with you on your point that only the valkyrie is undercosted. Look at units like the medusa, the hydra and the manticore. In a space marine army I would take any of them at a 20% cost increase. They can keep their bs3- when you twin link everything or rely on scatter die you're definietly no worse off than bs4. The psyker battle squad is also just stupid.

Now take a rhino. Move some side armour to front. Lose a side access point (why would guard ever want to disembark when you have 5 fire points?). Lose the hilarious repair ability. Increase transport capacity to a much more sensible number (12). Replace the storm bolter with a multilaser. Add a heavy flamer/ heavy bolter. Increase fire points to 5. Command vehicle for orders. Amphibious for fluff.
Now how many points more than the rhino do you think this should cost? 20...
You've got to be joking. The rhino is probs undercosted itself. But the chimera blows it out of the water.

Compare tac marines with vet guardmen. The difference between them is summed up in one word- WARGEAR.
Marines can only take 1 special and 1 heavy weapon. Something is going to go to waste every time you fire or move. Vet guardsmen can take 3 special weapons. They can fill a role and do it very well for very little points. The problem can only be compounded when you factor in things like the undercosted valkyries and chimeras. They remove the ONLY weakness vets have. Yes marines get bolters. But for antihorde I would take 3 flamers and a heavy flamer coming out of a chimera over a tac squad standing with their asses in the wind anyday.

Sorry jawaballs you'll have to excuse my clogging up your blog with these longwinded comments ;)

Xadhoom said...

Great post, Jawaballs!

Mech IG won the last 1750 point tournament I went to, with the following list:

Command HQ (Meltaguns) in a Chimera
2 Platoons HQs (Meltaguns) in Chimeras
4 Infantry squads (Flamers) in Chimeras
2 Devil Dogs (Multi-Melta)
2 Demolishers (Lascannon)
1 Leman Russ (Las/Plas)

From what I've ascertained, the way to return balance to the force is terrain. If you use more LOS-blocking terrain, those tanks and their long range guns are less effective.

Now, I've seen some of the battle reports from your club, and I have to say you guys apparently hate a crowded board. Me and my pals cover *at least* 25 % of the board with terrain, preferably LOS-blocking. Even Carnifexes can hide if they want to!

In addition to this, we crowd up the battlefield with lots and lots of little knicknacks. Don't let those tanks move too freely. Tank Traps, barricades and similar junk, that counts as impassable to vehicles force them to move around and therefore limits their movement. The infantry can move more freely, of course.

The end result is that vehicles have a tougher time manoeuvring, and acquiring targets. In turn, this shifts the balance back towards the middle. Vehicles are still tough, but it isn't enough to park 7 Chimeras and 3 Leman Russes in a corner and shoot your way to victory!

Sabb said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dan said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
HuronBH said...

I had my first encounter with the OT Guard this weekend and have to agree that they are a pretty nasty army. All mounted up and tier in levels (4 Chimeras up front with 2 executioners on their flanks, a squadron of 2 Hydras behind them (seeing over because the turret is above the Chimeras)and then 3 Valks behind that) with more meltaguns that I have ever seen even in an Apoc game. It can be a brutal army.

I managed to pull out a win, but only because it was a Kill Points mission and I was playing my new Orks (that I am building and painting for Mechanicon) and 2/3rds of the 80 boyz some how managed to make it to his dug in tank positions. Nasty Nasty game and I think it will be the list to beat (at least til nids arrive) for a good while.

jawaballs said...

Granted, I can see how an Ork Horde, or even a Marine horde army can beat that IG list. If you send 100 models at them and only 40 make, that is still enough to wipe out an army of guard. My beef is that now I have to horde out my army! Looks like I will have to break into that drawer of Blood Angels jump packs I have and BA Horde it! Funny, that is the army I started with and dropped because I was getting torn up by gun lines. Oh how the game revolves.

jawaballs said...

OH, and by the way guys, this is not an open forum. I expect people to behave. If you come in here and post nasty comments I will just delete them, including my own! Yes, I have responded to posts then deleted them because I felt bad. Save your breath for the forums like Dakka. (Sorry Dakka!) Jawaballs

jawaballs said...

Alilperspective, nice point about the chimera and medusa. I would love to get chimeras instead of rhinos. I havent even looked at the point cost of a Medusa yet... I was too dejected to care when I found out Valks cost 70 points less then I thought. Time to look at Medusas! Cringe. Thanks to Jwolf for giving me his personal copy of the Guard Dex! :) Now I wonder if I can pump out a Guard list before I go to Mechanicon...

jawaballs said...

Hmmm Blood Angels Horde?

Dante
Lesmares

Assult Squad x10
Assault Squad x10

Vet AS x10
Vet AS x10

Death Co x4
Power fist and meltagun upgrades.

2kish points... Sigh... 46 assault marines up against an army that can pump out at least that many shots that deny armor saves a turn. :(

Ash said...

That is were superior tactics come in to play. You have the edge already. You are thinking of ways to be his army you are planning. The mere fact that he is playing I Guard is most likely an indicator that he is unable to be original. That is his weakness make it your strength.

If you charge a gun line then you deserve to die even if you are orcs survive and slaughter them you deserve to die.

Beat him by dictating tactics not responding to his. This is rule One of War. "Despair is a mind killer."

40k in the 5th Dimension is about innovation. Innovate!

and when you, Fritz, Black Matt and the rest do. Don't post it online. Drop it on them at the table. Don't feed the copy cats. Time to make them work for the glory.

Skulls for the Skull Throne.

Ash

Ash

Lucas said...

Ok I just got my demon Hunter codex back and I can ascertain the page Number.

Page 22, ordo Mallus Inquisitor Lord,
Down in the trans port entry says an Inquisitor in terminator armor takes up two spaces in a Land Raider, and Chimera.

Now that is open for interpretation, I didn't think it was only an inquisitor lord, but is it.

I hope that is better rather then the one off memory. Personally it is very unfluffy, in my opinion, to transport terminators in a chimera.

A side note;
Hang in there, The blood angles will probably become the best psykers in the game. and looking at the space hulk minis....
it's gonna be great.

dannyk01 said...

I personally think that the guard players actually needed to use tactics to win with the last codex and the people who still play guard (such as myself) are still using those tactics. I say that the new codex has given us more level and that alot of SM players haven't actually used proper tactics besides charging in.

Please remember though that I am writing this off experience and have lost many games and won many with the new and old codex. I think that the new codex for guard has honestly made the game more luck based. Oh yea, almost all of the imperial guard units have 1 wound, they are quite easy to kill with almost no armour save at all. The guard standard lasgun wouldn't be able to almost penetrate a SM so I do see the need for the pwnidge guns also.

By the way, the grey knights list is the from the daemon hunters codex i believe. Also, when capturing points, I don' think that the Valks actually can capture objective. Eliminate the troops and you have pretty much won on a capture the objective game.

IrishRampage54 said...

Man o Man seeing The epic jawaballs getting scared by some gaurdsman... What would Sanguinius Think :p I personally dont care for all this nay sayer talk. I proudly play blood angels and feel we are still as good as other armies as long as played right and we have tricks up our sleaves and New units will roll old tactics its why we gotta keep our A game and evovle to whats going on This Game would get boring if we never had some challenges wed jus use the same old lazy tactics I see armies like this as a challenge and with Dante leading my army im sure i can overcome it >:D FOR SANGUINIUS!!!!!!!

Kaboom? said...

one of the* people

michael said...

i ran blood angels for a while and got tired of the same uber cheese dante corbulo combo i had to run ot be cmpetitve. So i started running an imperial fist army. im happy to say i might get my chance to dust of my BA becasue if the rumors are tru its gonna be good. i agree with you 100 percent. i played a nid player yesterday in a 2000 pt game who ran 40 gaunts and 20 genestealers all with fleet and the ability to hit marines on a three wound on a 4 at init 5. if thats not broken im not sure what is. on top of that he ran 2 squads of zoanthropes a hive tyrant and 2 trygons. needless to say i got worked over on a imperial fist list i made because i liked it and kept it fluffy. then when i told him he ran cheese he said anyone who doesnt is stupid. im so sick of seeing the same internet lists when i play people its actually hurting my eyes. i refuse to enter tournys unless cheese gets checked at the door.

jawaballs said...

Sadly tournaments are not for you! At least competitive ones. Tournaments are meant to be won, unless they are clearly posted as otherwise. So expect to run into army after army that will do the same thing. Again I harken back to my first tournament where most of the top 12 armies were the same nid army. One thing that can be said for the last few codex releases... they are all over powered. That makes them all able to win.

Was the guy you played cheezing? Yes. Can you blame him? No. Should he play that kind of list against your fluff list in a casual game? No. When I go to play Casual games, I let my opponent know he will be playing my tournament list. He can either accept the game, or not. But by accepting the game, he knows he is in for a fight! Don't fault him for playing a cheezy list. Next time make sure he is not though.

michael said...

have you seen the leaked codex jawa? if so what did u think

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