Early army list ideas!

It is too early for me to be writing lists at this point because I dont know the values. I should be able to do that this weekend. :) But from reading others information, it is becoming clear to me that, as I expected, BA are going to be expensive... IF you want to play the big boys. But you don't have to put a 280 point non IC HQ on the table just because you can. Sure we all want to play these freaks, but it looks like they have been written so as to make them vulnerable point sinks. No matter how strong Mephiston is, a single squad of IG Vets in their Chimera can mow him down.

The secret in writing competitive lists with the new dex will be to avoid the point sinks. As has been pointed out by others, you can get an RAS, in a Razorback, with a Power weapon, meltagun and heavy flamer or bolter on the turret for less then 150 points. Now THAT is a bargain. I don't know what the equivalent cost would be in C:SM, but I do know that their Razors are not Fast Vehicles. The best part is that you can get five of these for 750 points. In an 1850 list, you will still have 1100 points to spend on the toys!

Now to add more to the list. I am thinking that Dante and a Sanguinary Guard will be a must for me. I love Dante and the Guard are beautiful. Do I put them in a Raven? I will probably do so and start them on the table. In fact, I am thinking that I will have to go with three of them on the table. Without seeing the points, I imagine three of them, Dante, SanGrd, and a Libby Dread should eat up the rest of my points. But what an army!

As I understand it, the transport can move 12", and the passengers can disembark then assault. Is this a big deal for assault troops? They can already move 12"... Absolutely! The lander will save them from the first two rounds of whithering small arms fire that normally reduces the effectiveness of any jump squad. They should be getting into combat intact every time. I may drop a couple of the Razorbacks, and fill the other flyers with RAS.

The idea is simple. Two flyers deploy up as far as they can, then move 24" to get into position and gather up a cover save. Or move 12" and assault if possible. In the meantime, the razorbacks move flat out to get into flamer range next turn. The third flyer sits back and fires it's missles at stuff in the way. Or on turn one all three of them sit tight and empty their payload on transports and tanks. That should amount to three dead transports at least. Once the flyers have moved up, the razors follow in and dispense flame and assault as needed, mopping up the survivors.

I know, simple rudimentary plan... but I have made a 40k career out of using simple plans to win tournaments, and that seems to be a mystery to some folks. So there you go! Dudes comment on my Bols articles hating on me for pointing out the obvious and calling me a noob. Whatever. I am willing and do travel across the country to put my army on the table. I invite any one to do the same and meet me at BOLSCON to see how simple I am. :)

Back to topic.

So the first thing you have to do when you break the seams on your new dex is to ignore Mephiston and the other monsters. Build your self an army first. Find the hidden gems, like scout bikers and fast moving Vindicators and exploit them! If you want to go crazy, you can play three Baal Preds, that now have scout which I believe allows them to flank march... I have never used scouts so am still sort of unfamiliar with what "scout" allows. But don't stop there, throw in three Vindicators for 6 fast moving tanks spewing death. For what I estimate to be around 825 you can get the six of them on the table along with your 5 RAS at 750, for a total now of 1575. In an 1850 list you still have 275 points! With that much mobile fire power, you can cut down on the number of RAS razorbacks, and load up on harder hitting elites and sanguinary priests instead.

The name of the game is redundancy. When the boys stormed Normandy they were told to split up... a group of GIs was a juicy target, a single soldier was a waste of ammo. It is the opposite in 40k. A single Vindicator is a juicy target. Eliminate that and you eliminate a huge threat. Psychologically guys will be compelled to shoot a lone Vindicator. It is an easy kill of a deadly target and they can add a mark to their subconscious checklist. If there are three of them however, their subconscious mind may have them looking for less numerous targets. Our mind wants to feel satisfied that we are accomplishing something. Eliminating one of three vindicators will not satisfy that because you have only slightly reduced the perceived threat, but taking down a lone Land Speeder may. The subconscious mind is a powerful thing!

Another angle of this is that most people don't quite fathom what a Fast Vehicle is. To spell it out, Blood Angels Vindicators now have a 36" range. They can move 12" and fire their gun. Or, a Storm Raven can move 6" from behind cover, and fire off all of its weapons. More on this when I talk about Vehicle Tactics later on.

Any way, hopefully this weekend I will have the stats. Then Fritz, Danny Internets and I are going to convene a war council and work out an army. Then I will build it and the blood will spill.


Anonymous said...

I have seen the book and know most of the costs if you want to know anything chris. The storm raven is 200 points a pop. While they are going to be good they only have AV12 so your going to have to be very carefull with them.

Puma said...

I would love to field some of those flyers filled with 5 Assault marines (or DC), a Furioso and a character, but I think in 1850 I think I'll probably go with 2 Baals, a Vindicator, 4-5 Assault squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks depending on if Assault squads can even take Razorbacks (because C:SM RAS can only take Rhinos or Drop Pods if they take off their jump packs) and whatever else I can fit in after that (like a Librarian dread).

The Baals and Vindicators will be scary. The Baals will either be able to move after enemy setup or Outflank. Either way that'll be scary combined with being a Fast vehicle. What people will really be afraid of are Fast Vindicators, though... Vindis can already (with an inexpensive upgrade) ignore terrain tests, so they're going to be rolling through terrain to get shooting lanes rather than avoiding terrain like most vehicles do.

And BTW, me=Docrailgun

Fritz said...

Fast moving vindicators are going to need a second look espically since mode marine players have completly dismissed them.

I think a lot in the BA codex is like Swarmlord in the Tyranids codex- not only a ton of points, but you need other units to work side by side or join with the freaks to really make them shine.

Michael said...

This codex seems great. Lots of little tidbits that will add up to a killer army.

A triple baal, triple vindi list will scare the crap out of opposing players. Vinidis open transports, and flamestorm cannons toast the contents. Granted that is your FA and HS slots filled, but that is already tons of shooty death. And I didn't know Baals would have scout, that makes the flamer variant way more viable.

Throw in lots of Razorbacks and you have a seriously shooty army, with lots of punch.

I'm stoked to get the codex in hand!

HuronBH said...

The Vindies are cool, but very expensive. I think a loaded up pred ends up being a bit cheaper and more survivable with just as much punch.

Also don't forget the 5 Thunder Hammer Stormshield Terminator Assault squad. Add in a Sang Priest with Terminator Armor and for a bit more then 300pts watch them shrug off wounds with their 2+/3+/4+ saves and furious charge.

Anonymous said...

even better is to give those termies a libby with the pyschic power that gives them preferred enemy. Remember a sanguinary priest only has to be within 6" for them to get the feel no pain and as they are independent characters you can switch them around squads as you see fit during the game.

I think the BA are going to one up IG and give us the AV13 spam instead of the Av12 spam. You can easily fit 6 Av13's in a standard 1850 list with 4 or so razorbacks.

Oh and for whoever asked yes BA assault squads can get razorbacks.

Michael said...

Furious charge is great for LC termies, but less so for ss/th. You get the extra str, up to 9, but the hammers still always swing last.

Thats why I love to mix the squads up, so I have 2 LC termies swinging at I:5. It really puts a dent in squads.

I am excited to get the 1-3 Sanguinary priests now. I plan on maxing them and really doing some crazy things in combat with the Libby's as HQ supporting.

Puma said...

That's good news for us, but not so good for the Ultras.

I'm probably going to stick with lots of inexpensive Troops, since (as with the Wolves) the BA troop choices are better and cheaper (probably) than the C:SM ones.

I think it would be great fun to have a bunch of Assault squads in Rhinos or Razorbacks charging about the field capturing objectives while keeping some DC on a leash around one... just daring the opponent to assault it.

Anonymous said...

BA tacticals and assault squads have the exact same points costs as their vanilla cousins just with more options.

They also changed the way removing jump packs work for the assault squads. Instead of a free transport you get a 35 point credit towards whatever transport you want to take, and they can take any transport including land raiders. So a troop assault squad in a LR gets it for 215 points. Rhinos and razors cost an extra 15 points though due to the fast upgrade and drop pods are still free.

A few other interesting notes are that death company are relentless and come with bolters, bp and ccw like grey hunters. So they can fire off a round of bolter shots and still charge. One in every five DC can get a flamer or melta pistol and I believe any of them can take a power weapon, fist, or thunder hammer for tac sarge costs.

Another thing is that while assault squads and sanguinary guard are the only entries with the descent of angels special rule (re-roll reserves and only 1D6 scatter on deep strike) in the jump pack entry in the armory it says any unit with a jump pack has the rule. I dont know if its intended like that but BA vanguard are slightly cheaper than the vanilla version and with a re-roll to reserve and better scatter might be worth it.

BA honor guard work just like a regular command squad now but are 10 points cheaper and have a sanguinary priest instead of an apothecary. Yes that means they have the 6" FNP + FC bubble.

I'm going tomorrow to get another look at the book if anyone wants me to check anything specific.

Steve said...

i looked over the book and my main question is since now that the death company is a troops choice ad noght is a troops choice do they actually take up a force organization slot? i kinda liked the idea of 10 DC with a chaplain and a DC dread in a stormraven. i know its a 525 point unit before upgrades but it could smash some face, and i really don't think i can field my BA with no DC. point is if i have to spend 2 troop choices for a DC and DC dread then maybe its not so great, we will see.

alex said...

All these new codices seem to have big point cost model that can do a lot of crazy things.

Like Fritz said, "you need other units to work side by side or join with the freaks to really make them shine."

I blame War Machine. If you play War Machine, that's what it feels like. We can't blame GW competing with privateerpress. That being said.

After reading the new BA codex for 2 days, this one will be truly king of king on mech. Let the age of mech live on. Fast moving and punch you in the face hard. Since Tyranid can't build nidzilla list anymore, BA can build dreadzilla.

If you like the old Baal, the new one is even better for similar point cost.

Some hero character is pure gold. Like Corbulo who let you re-roll 1 dice per game. I know that I will love going second.

I'm stunned after reading this codex. Since Jawaball already pwn faces with the old codex, the new one will put him up there among the unbeatable kings.

Flekkzo said...

My Tactical Squads with Razors cost me 290 points. I need all ten to get special weapons so I need all 10 marines to get the melta (and I get a 10p lascannon while I am at it) and I trick the razor out with an ass cannon and bling. If I can grab two five man squads both with melta and power weapon and both squads get a razorback each… I'll say that BA is getting a very good deal:) If true that is.

Wish they could tweak the vanilla codex with stuff like making the Land Speeder storm a dedicated transport and fixing the transport for assault marines. Those changes would go awesome in white dwarf AND they can always release a new unit/model at the same time.

Either way the BA codex sounds great and fun. I'll buy it since I like having and reading codexes:)

Devinstater said...

I hope there is a build that allows the use of RAS with jump packs (competitively). I just love the idea/playstyle of jumppack troops.

I fell in love with them in the 4the Ed SM battleforce.

If that is the case, I will be joining the Red Threat for sure.

Colby said...

I still think that the 135-point death company dread with dual blood claws, meltagun, and heavy flamer is the sleeper unit of the codex. The fleet, furious charge and immunity to shaken/stun just seals the deal. Not to mention averaging 9-10 MEQ kills on the charge. These guys can almost literally kill a tactical squad a turn!

Teeef said...

870 gives you 3 Baals w/HB Sponsons and 3 Vindies.

Five 5-man RAS with PW and melta in Razorback with any upgrade weapon system would be 900

HQ Reclusiarch and you've hit 2K

If you ran the razors as HB/HF you would have room for a SP and a Captain and instead of a Reclusiarch 1 more RAS with a melta in a HB/HF Raz.

6 scoring fast vehicle units, 12 TL HBs 3 TL AsCannons and 3 vindie pie plates.

Or drop one RAS/Razor and add fists to the sarges and one more SP.

Dump the two SPs for Corbs and it is one less KP but some more better.

I would be more likely to 2 Baal, 2 Vindie, 2 Pod Furioso and then the 5 RAS/Raz.

DC dreads are awesome but you need ten DC to get two. I will have 10 DC in a rhino built, and I nead 1 more DC Dread to do that. I would have to give up two of the RAS/Raz squads and both Furiosos...so only 3 small scoring units.

I also noticed our Captain does not have Rights of Battle.

alex said...

Are you all sure you can fire a vindicator when moving more than 12 inches. Im pretty sure the rules state ordanance cannot fir if moving more than 6 inches in the codex. Don't have it on hand but my local GW manager said so :S?

Colby said...

You manager is thinking of Ordinance BARRAGE weapons, like on the BA's fast Whirlwind. The only restriction for firing normal Ordnance weapons is that if they're fired, they can be the ONLY weapon fired, regardless of speed or defensive weapons. For Ordnance Barrage, vehicles normally have to be stationary to fire them, but a fast vehicle with that type of weapon can move at Combat Speed and still fire.

So to sum up:

BA Vindicators can move Cruising Speed and still fire, and BA Whirlwinds can move at Combat Speed and still fire.

Puma said...

I was almost hoping that there WOULDN'T be vast Vindicators. It almost doesn't seem fair. Fast HF Razobacks are pretty nasty too. 12"+ template range one turn, another blast the next, and then a FC assault? Not fun for any opponent.

I hope I can fit in a good-sized DC and maybe a DC Dread so I can sit on an objective and dare opponents to assault it.

But, probably most of the toys will be saved for Apocalypse. Hmm... 10+ DC and a DC Dread in the Baneblade variant with the vulcan mega-bolter that holds lots of troops? It's like a super Baal. :)

something said...

the DC dread with blood claws is where its at, re-roll failed wounds and for every unsaved wounds u cause u get an additional attack and yes if theres an unsaved wound form the additional attack u get another attack and its just keeps going till u miss thats brutal

Dezert said...

I have played about 12 games already using an all infantry with one vehicle list. Of course its all jump packs. games have been from 1500-2000 point range I am very satisfied with how they work and my list has been competitive and our local MECH IG player has been dodging playing this list. will see him in a tourny soon enough :D

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