So I finally got my hands on the points costs and stats for the new Blood Angels. In my opinion, this new book is 100% win! I would be surprised if a lot of guys did not qualify for the Vegas GT using the Blood Angels codex.
People have been beating the book to death on their blogs so I wont bother rehashing old meat. I will get right to it.
First of all, forget any HQ except for Dante. Making the big ones super costly, and non Independent Characters has pretty much priced them out of any thing but Apocalypse games. Put The Sanguinor on the table, and he will instantly catch every gun on the table. With no squad to put him in, he is going to die every time early on. That goes for all of the big boys. I think they might be ok for an occasional surprise list or something, but playing any of them smacks of one trick pony.
So what then? Well, Dante even with his power fist sized increase in points is worth every penny. Plus taking him lets you get the most out of the sexiest new set of models GW has released in a long time... the Sanguinary Guard. I think just about any BA army has to start with Dante and a squad of Guard. Throw in the banner for good measure.
What next? Well GW blessed us with several little easter eggs. First of all, while they are still costly, and in some cases still more costly then their generic brethren, they are still substantionally cheaper then the PDF. Case in point... RAS. Now you can put an RAS in a Razorback with a meltagun, extra armor and a power weapon, for about the same that it would have cost you to put them in a rhino previously. Big deal huh? IT IS! You can give the Razorback a Heavy Flamer turret and it is fast. Move it 12" and lay down the flame. Next turn, get out, shoot a transport, assault, and the razor can move off and lay down more flame. It is my opinion that all competitive lists will be taking advantage of this times 3.
Other Nuggets? How bout Fast Attack, scout, Baal Predators. Yup, you read right. You can flank march your Baal predator now and bring it in on the sides behind his lines. OR you can infintrate it after all deployment is done, then scout move before the game begins. How important is this??? You take first turn, and deploy. He will counter deploy his stuff, putting his squishy troops away from harm. Then you infiltrate your Baal! Scout move it to striking distance, then next turn move 6" and destroy them. Whats more is now you can put on a Flame Cannon turret! Str 6 AP 3 template, no cover and no armor saves for marines. This will become the new Basilisk... the gun all marines players knew and hated in 4th ed. Add flamers onto the side and you got death to troops, or give it heavy bolters for those squads you just cant reach.
A smart player will field a couple of these bad boys. So what about heavy support now? I have two words for you... Fast Vindicator. The ability to move 12" and shoot it's gun means that the Vindicator is back!
We have all heard the rumors and facts about the new Raven. ALl I have to say about it at this point is that it is a point sink that forces you to play a small, killy army because just putting one on the table will not be enough. You will need 2 or 3.
Here is a quick list I have been bouncing around:
Librarian epistolary combi melta,
2 Sang priest with PF and PW
Tactical squad x10 Lascannon/melta/pw
Three RAS with Razor/melta/pw
3 Baal Predators. Two with Asscannon, one with Flamer turret
2 Vindicators.
1 Predator with Las sponsons
This is a strong Take all Comers list with flexibility, redundancy and the ability to change tactics mid game and regroup. Three fast razorbacks that can lay flame or heavy bolter shots, three hard hitting assault squads, a combat squading lascannon tactical squad sitting in the back on an objective, and 6 tanks laying down death. Anti horde, anti tank, enough fire power to go toe to toe with guard and tau and enough assault strength to hold off Space Wolves while the guns do their work.
Sure, even with the new push towards an assaulty BA army, this army lacks true assault strength with assault taking a back seat to killy guns, but I have made a career out of that with my current list relying on just three dreads to do all the assaulting.
Another list, my endulgence list, has Dante and a Sang Priest with Death Company and Sang guard in razors with a Libby dread and a DC dread, with ras and tactical boys holding down the fort supported by a dakka Baal.
This list is a completely different monster that is risky, but if the risk pays out... death. Those boys coming out of those flyers are rock hard. The libby dread will make a difference every game and Dante grabbing up Furious Charge... Here is how it goes.
Turn one. Fly both ships 24" right into the midst of his troops. Hopefully they survive shooting. Turn Two, unload and win. Send out the DC, Sang Guard, Dante, and both Dreads to take on seperate units. Any troops that are on the table will vaporize. If the landers actually survive, great! They can no go crazy and gun down whatever they want.
Or you can spend turn one with the landers moving 6" and shooting off all their missles trying to supress some heavy weapons. Move up the Baal and take some fire, then move up the flyers for a turn three assault. Either way, they are going to rock.
So there you have it! Look for my converted raven soon, and some playtesting batreps!
Jawaballs
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26 comments:
I thought Baal Predators were only Fast Scout Tanks, so they wouldn't be able to infiltrate, but they can outflank, or use there scout move to move fast down the side and possibly get side armor shots.
ditto Mr Beasley Jawaballs ... 'scout' gives scout and flank, whereas 'infiltrate' is infiltrate and flank. scout doesn't gift infiltrate...
Still an awesome tank though. If you've seen banewolves in action, then you'll know how good those flanking fast flame tanks will be!
I like the first list for standard play. I've been thinking with all the whizz-bang crazy rules and changes to the codex, that I'd basically just update my current list (which is like your old PDF list). Use the same units as before like mobile assault squads, Dante leading, Lascannon Tacticals for objectives, and lots of Baal Preds. Sure they're not the coolest in the book, but now all these units have been upgraded and costs dropped. That just means the list that won games with the gimped codex just got waaay better. That's better than falling into the point-sink hype.
And there's always room for the "crazy" lists for fun games like horde DC, Lander Spam, DS Raiders, etc, so you can never get bored with this 'dex.
Excitement grows! great ideas for lists, Jawa. I sure cannot wait to get my hands on the S. Guard. They are such pretty models.
I'm not sure you can go too wrong with this new codex. There is so much good stuff in it and it seems to be pointed out well. and I really like the artwork too.
The first approach looks nearly as mine gerenally, but I´m not sure about the details. I like the idea of fast preds as heavy support; maybe I will drop Baal Preds for them. RAS in Rhinos/ Razorbacks are set in stone, but I´m unsure if I will take a tactical squad or a deepstriking RAS for claiming home objectives. The new honour guard is just to good not to take, so I will run an librarian with an HG attached to him. I would love to take some Drads, but it will hard to take more than one of them pointwise. The magna grapple offers some new posibilities and I have to try how usefull it is...
I note you think the Fast Rhino points hike makes them infeasible for the Tacs?
The list looks pretty good, I like it.
Couple of questions though. What is your power loadout going to be for your Librarian? Do you think the epistolary upgrade is worth it?
I'm just way stoked to get my hands on a copy and have the actual points values. And just like you, I'm sure I will have some "indulgence" lists too. One trick pony or not, they still seem like fun!
I would have put a transport with the tac, but I ran out of points. Don't really need it though with the two aggressive RAS. They can move and take objetives and the 10 guys in the back will sit there all game blazing a path with the Las. I did not realize about the scout thing. I have never played a scout myself. I just thought they all had infiltrate and FM. It doesnt really matter though. Deploying them on the 12" table edge, then giving them a 24" scout move will do the same thing. Getting a tank infiltrated closer then 18" would be impossible any way, so infiltrating or deploying will probably be the same on placement.
As for the librarian dread? I will probably give it wings and more attacks. The basic librarian will be more defensive since that list relies on those couple of RAS staying alive. I have never played a libby either, so I have no clue if it is worth it. I may drop the epistol and put in another Sang priest to hang back and give my tactical FNP. That squad will never die! It is pretty much a never lose situation in the "Take the base" objective game. He will have to get through a LOT of death to get to a 10 man NFP tactical in cover with two PWs.
Make that 18" scout move for the Baal, I know they cant go 24. ( Hehe people love pointing out obvious typo errors."
Wings of Sanguinius almost seems like a given for the Libby Dread, but I'm not so sure on the 2nd power myself. Shield of Sanguinius is very good if you play on sparse tables with little terrain, especially since the power is used during your enemy's shooting phase, meaning that the Dread can use both of his powers during the course of a full turn (Wings in my turn, Shield in yours).
The problem is that the Force Weapon can't be traded out for other kit, so if he looses a weapon there goes the Blood Fist (which is more useful overall than the S6 Force Weapon since most things that aren't Eternal Warrior will die to S10 anyhow; and Good Luck trying to Force Weapon any Tyranid MC to death with Shadow of the Warp messing up your Psy Test). That means that bringing Might of Heroes helps the Dread do what it does best, better. Of course, since he's not an Epistolary he can't ever use the Might in the same turn that he flies. :(
The good news is that it should be easy to keep your Libby Dread within 6 inches of a Sanguinary Priest, giving him Furious Charge. As long as he still has his blood fist that makes him great for taking out other Dreads and Monstrous Creatures without Inv Saves or high I (like Fexes, mainly, not that anyone seems to bring those anymore :( ).
What about Unleahsed rage for the dread? Preferred enemy is amazing for a CC oriented dread, especially if you have the blood claws that grant extra attacks. Hello, I hit on 3+, reroll my misses and wound on a 2+. You get no armor save, and each wound gives me another attack. My friend over there, the Sang Priest gives me Str:7 and I:5. That is a whole tactical squad obliterated in one assault.
I'll take 2 thank you.
I love Librarians, and usually field one. It used to be Mephiston, but he was priced out of a competitive army I think, sot he regualr ones will get the nod form now on. As far as the Epistolary upgrade goes, it is hard to say for sure. That is one extra power per turn, or another Sang Priest saving your tac squad holding the objective. I'm still on the fence about it, but I tend to do the basic version as he is mostly a support character, not the uber combat/shooty specialist.
Hope that makes sense.
Looks quite interesting. I was hoping to be able to have some Jump Pack marines flying around, but it looks like Fast Razorbacks might be too good to pass up. I still hope to find a way to make a jump pack list works when I get to see the codex for myself.
All those fast tanks are delicious as well. Looks like a load of fun.
I think the only problem I have with your first list is lack of ranged anti tank. I usualy prefer a bit more, but by turn 2 you are all over the opponant with all sorts of melta.
A lascannon in the tactical, two on the predator and two fast moving vindicators is plenty of ranged anti tank. Add in two asscannon baal that will be able to get side shots whenever they want... and there is plenty of anti tank. :)
You took out the Furioso's in your list. Care to explain why? I mean I know you are going for the strengths in the new RAS, Baal's and Vindies. Or are you just working with this list now and see if you can bring back Furioso's later?
Because they are no longer venerable. I will eventually do a dread list. But for now I want to throw down something I know can rock some ass!
while they arent venerable they do have AV13 now and are a lot better in CC with WS6
Thanks for clearing that up Jawa.
The other reason I am asking for Furioso's is just so you can post the following statement again.
"All would die... die... die... Purged by the holy flame of the emperor and the might of sanguinius. "
Do you feel the 10 man tac squad is that much better than a 6 man RAS with a TL Lascannon Razorback?
For 30+ points less you get the TL and the armor and they are more mobile.
I am not trying to challenge you (trust me – I am a noob) but I would appreciate a bit of the why and wherefore. I already have that Tac squad so I could save myself some time, money and paint if it is better than the RAS option.
That 10 man squad is my rock. If I need to, I can keep them together and in cover on an objective... not very easy to dislodge.
Maybe a silly question, but I thought about the flamers on the razorback, but then I thought about it. Doesn't the location for the starting point of the template (so darn far back) mean that the template itself won't be very effective?
You'll either have to get right up to the enemy unit or expose side armor, right? At that point, it seems like a heavy bolter will do just as many wounds (though I guess you lose a bit of movement)
Side armor is the same as front. 11 You can turn the turret sideways, and the end of the flamer should extend past the side of the tank. Side or back, if a heavy bolter tears into a Razorback, it will probably hurt it. Hopefully if used enmasse, you can get three of them up moving 12", disembark the troops, open up with small arms fire, then lay down the flame on the survivors.
erm, what is RAS?
The standard troop assault squad.
What about Corbulo? Taking 40k to the 5th dimension he ust seems to be a great addition to any list. If he survives time turn 5, you can reroll the dice to end or continue the game. Pretty cool, isn´t it?
I'm of mixed feelings about the new Codex, to be honest. On the one hand, the new units are great, their deepstriking rule is wonderfully thematic, and it will allow for some very fun lists on the table top. On the other hand, however, it also feels a bit too "powergamery," in my opinion: the ability to feel hordes of Dreads (half of which can fly) and/or fast tanks seems both extreme, and contrary to how I always imagined Blood Angels fought (ie lots of jump packs). And triple Stormravens moving Dreadnoughts into close combat on turn one is just...uuuuugh.
This is only an initial reaction, though, and chances are it will change after seeing a few games with the new book.
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